GN's Progress Log - Self-Love Arc: Deleting the Apps, Fixing Low Self Confidence

Bman said:

As for getting the paid version of Hinge, yes it's worth it for sending unlimited likes. Some days I'll send out a mass dump of likes and just let the matches roll in for the next few days. Pretty much every app you need the paid version. Just part of the game.

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To add: I wouldn't get premium Hinge unless your profile is actually good enough. If your profile is good enough, then it's absolutely worth it.

The way I think of it is, dating app subscriptions are like a multiplier. If you get 0 matches or close to it, it won't do much.

Squilliam said:

To add: I wouldn't get premium Hinge unless your profile is actually good enough. If your profile is good enough, then it's absolutely worth it.

The way I think of it is, dating app subscriptions are like a multiplier. If you get 0 matches or close to it, it won't do much.

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I’ve gotten a good amount of likes and matches on a worse profile than what I have now. My match rate is a lot lower now though because of how fucked the gender ratios where I live are, but when I do get matches they are mostly attractive and fit. But that’s true, premium is a multiplier.

Date Log: Chubby Indian Girl from Hinge

We scheduled this date for 1PM as that was the only time that worked for me and her and I had to drive like 20 or so minutes to go see her. I just finished up with the gym+showering and finding parking was hard as the surrounding area was crowded. I got there like 10-15 minutes late. Turns out she said I’ll just wait in my car until you get here, so I let her know and she came over.

She walked in and I greeted her with a hug, was well received. When I stepped back a little I started feeling like I got catfished. She looked a lot flabbier in person. Now that I think about it. All the pics on her profile were taken in lower lighting so she looked skinnier than she actually was. I was horny as fuck though so I just said to myself whatever just try to close. I pay for our drinks, sit down. Usual conversation topics, though she does start to nerd out over kdramas and anime and asks me if I watch so I think it’s fine to talk about. I used to just kinda talk about nerdy interests right off the bat but now I want to see if I can get it out of her first as otherwise I risk her losing attraction.

After I finish my boba I ask her if she wants to go walk around the downtown area. She says sure and we just walk by spots and talk about shops and restaurants we have been in here. She’s from the area so she yaps a bit about places around that she has memories for. I use the walk to ramp up some escalation. I stroke her hair, touch her earrings, put my arm around her back when crossing streets, and eventually grab her hand. She puts her phone in her bag and then holds my hand as we walk. At one point she asks if we should go to some closeby park. I said sure and we go there, more talking. Then we get there and find a sort of but not really hidden bench to sit on. We sit right next to each other, I put my arm around her, and talk a bit.

I think this would be a good spot to take it further so I turn my head towards her. My hand is wrapped around her shoulder. We make eye contact and she says she doesn’t kiss on first dates. I challenge this frame and ask why. She says something about wanting to know the guy. Tease her a bit about this, saying how she knows a good bit about me already. I’m still keeping laser focused eye contact, my fingers are trailing through her hair rather than leaning closer as that would be too much push. She might be liking the way I’m touching her cuz then she’s like “ppl might see, is your car closeby”. Honestly great she saved me the whole asking her to come to my car thing. Her frame here was so easy to break which was surprising. Old me would have just backed off at the first one or two signs of resistance.

Get to my car, it’s hot as fuck outside and inside my car so I turn on the AC and move the front seats back so we have some more space, and put my sunshade. Once we both get comfy we start making out. First time making out in my car shit is kind of weird, I don’t like having so much less freedom of mobility. I do pull away at times, works good. I more handsy with her, and she moves her hands down to my crotch, rubbing it. I move my hands down to hers, she doesn’t want me to put it down her pants but she’s okay with me rubbing on her crotch over her pants.

Course I’m getting horny after making out for some time and her rubbing on my crotch. I’m tryna come up with a smooth way to ask for a blowjob cuz that’s what’s going through my head, but I can’t think of the right words. I end up saying something about how I think she’s a good kisser but the way she’s rubbing down there she wants to kiss something else too. She laughs a little and is like “not right now”, again challenge frame by calling out how she already broke a rule she had for first dates so what’s one more. She does pull onto me again, make out some more. I pull away, try again, still same shit. Honestly I understand, giving a dude a blowjob in a car during daytime in a parking lot is kinda much. I feel like I could’ve gotten the lay had it been evening and much less people. Give up after a while and I take her to her car, say goodbye, and then drive off.

Post-Date Reflections:

-I have been somewhat feeling like I just play a character on some of my dates so I decided to observe this date closer than my others to see. On the date itself as well as texting leading up to the date I feel like I was myself, and when she brought up having dorky interests I felt more comfortable being myself. The only part that felt like a “character” was when I was escalating and going for the lay. I’m trying to make this comfortable for us both but it’s still a struggle.

-I somewhat feel like I am hurting and “tainting” girls by wanting to fuck them so soon. I’m aware of the nature of dating and dating apps yet I still feel some guilt. It’s held me back from escalating hard on dates I SHOULD have. It’s most likely cuz a lot of my dates want an LTR, and I do too but I’m still playing field like I’m going casual. They also don’t look like the kind of girls who fuck on the first date. I just try to tell myself girls enjoy sex just as much as men so no reason to feel this way.

-I was pretty disappointed in my result with this date so later in the day when I decided to bust a nut the post nut clarity gave me so much regret. I thought I was done going out with chubby chicks as the last one was the girl who got me banned off Hinge. Shit made me dangerously fatphobic fr. After her, the next 8 girls I went on dates with were all fit and attractive. Meanwhile this one I got catfished so I felt like I just stooped so low cuz I was horny. I told my brother later and he was like “dude you should’ve just ended the date early”. But after a few days I feel like this is just a hiccup. If I want cuter girls on Hinge now I will have to pay. I’ll get a week of HingeX so let’s see if it means I can get more cute girls. I’m capable of more, I know it.

9/2:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 2575
Protein: 117g
Gym: 0/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/3:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 2560
Protein: 138g
Gym: 1/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/4:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3118
Protein: 142g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/5:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3015
Protein: 152g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/6:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3269
Protein: 143g
Gym: 3/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/7:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3107
Protein: 142g
Gym: 3/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/8:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 2800
Protein: 144g
Gym: 4/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

Notes:

Finished all my nursing applications except 1, cut it super close with some of the writing parts. Slightly afraid with the amount of words I had to shave off I lost the original message/critical details of my paper. I’m burned out from writing so much so I’m taking a break before I start writing again.

I bought a week of Hinge X, ended up with 67 matches in that timespan from all the likes I sent out (never counted how many I set but I estimate at least a good few hundred) but struggled to covert a lot of them to dates. I had a lot of logistical issues too as I wasn’t checking locations and many girls were really far away from me, I might have burned through my nearby pool a little too quick. I think my text game needs a total overhaul (again). Working on trying to convert a few girls right now like this one semi hot persian 18yr old and this other cute southeast asian girl I am currently texting. There are also a few girls who live really far away I am using as practice to see if I can get girls to come a long way to see me. I think I may have one that is compliant enough to come all the way on her off day.

My location was set to San Jose, which is a dog shit city to be a single man in your early 20s as it has probably one of the worst major city gender ratios in the USA. But I set it there because its the closest big city to me I can feasibly drive to for a date. I just feel generally frustrated with the apps as I feel like all I can get from them are mediocre brown girls, and on top of that they are massively cuck so I just get even more pissed off. I match with plenty of girls I like but they way too often stop responding after a couple of texts (which can be usually after opener or after I ask "what are you up to rn") or don't respond at all. In some cases they were just timewasters. I have a strong feeling my opener is just too weird and confusing. Usually it goes:

Me: "Before I ask you out I want to know one thing"

Her: *some response*

Me: "Are you as much of a blanket thief cuddler as you seem" or " why does you/your profile lowkey give me blanket thief cuddler vibes"

A couple of cases I felt like switching it up and going for something more normie, by opening with a compliment about something unique to her like a dress, accessory, or her pets and maybe asking more about it. Still, would likely get ghosted after I responded to her response of my initial text.

I genuinely hate texting women I am interested in until after I have already been on a date, and I think this is something I need to address. I think I treat texting like ticking off a checkbox list rather than building comfort, investment, and further attraction with a girl. Part of it is feeling like if I don't act fast enough she will ghost before i can set up the date. On that list is opener, ask about hobbies, coffee or tea preference, ask when free, then set up date. That is my ideal path. I assume mediocre brown girls are more willing to put up with my bullshit because they aren't as desired as some of the other women I match with, including the hotter brown girls I actually am interested in. @zekler told me likely also this cuck shit is because they automatically see me as bf material rather than a guy they would fuck on the first date.

I would appreciate some tips on the right mindset to have when texting chicks, a good opener, and how to build investment/comfort properly. Can't find too many good resources online as most of it is too boring or too sexual for me.

Its just a pathetic feeling after switching out a lot of my pics for better ones, thinking I will finally get the quality I want only to still fail. I think I am still just a bit bitter about my last date so I am just taking out my frustration in a not so great way. At this point I hate doing dates for "experience", Im on like 22 dates now I think I get how dates mostly work. I need to improve my physique more and do more stuff that shows higher status.

On a more positive note, at least I know premium DOES work for getting more matches, and if I improve my SMV more and go to a better location I could possibly get matches in the 100s range or just higher quality ones. Crazy how the amount of matches I got on my best week of free Hinge I would get in a day with HingeX.

I approached another girl at the gym on Sunday. This time it’s a girl I went to high school with. She was in my English class and we were good acquaintances, she’s a really nice person but at the time I felt no attraction because she used to be pretty hefty, but she’s lost hella weight since and is pretty attractive now.
Really fucking nice ass too. I just said “what’s up” and she remembered who I was, we had a good convo about what we’d been up to since high school. Next time I see her I’ll ask for her number since I’ve been told with gym approaches to build a little comfort but since I already know her from school and met her again recently.

G.N said:

I would appreciate some tips on the right mindset to have when texting chicks, a good opener, and how to build investment/comfort properly. Can't find too many good resources online as most of it is too boring or too sexual for me.

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There are very few good resources on texting online. Its a relatively niche subject all things considered, and its also a relatively new one. Being an expert is hard to monetize. There's no incentive for virtually anyone to create resources for it.

1. Stop with bitching about texting. You may as well bitch you need to shower, diet, workout, and have a job. If its *necessary*, then whether you like it or not is irrelevant. This goes for all aspects of life. Reality and necessity trump opinions and likes. If good texting is uncomfortable for you, no one cares. Too bad. Too sexual for you? No one cares.
2. Don't be wallpaper, don't be normal. Your currency on apps is attention, not normalcy. This trumps almost everything.
3. Be as loud as possible without being phony. (I posted about authenticity earlier today if you want more).
4. Be engaging, force responses, force engagement. (within reason, you can overdo it). Open loop openers are the best, but you need to come up with your own. Some thought / question / statement she gets part of and needs to respond to in order to get the rest. Clickbait.
5. Use the engagement you created to force her to invest, preferably emotionally. The more she invests, the more likely you are to get a date.
6. The sooner the date the better. There are some very few people who will make a date with you two weeks from now and keep it, but the vast majority of tiktok adhd people have similar attention spans.
7. This one takes experience to recognize, but there are a lot of strategies you can use that will lead to numbers, or lead to girls agreeing to a date, but don't actually lead to the girl showing up on the date. They create a lot of false positives. Your goal is not matches, numbers, or girls agreeing to a date. Its girls showing up on a date (Some people try to take this further in that your goal is lays, but this is taking it too far imo. The point of solicitation is to get a meeting where you can then actually pitch the product, but without setting yourself up to fail during the pitch) The flipside is that the opposite exists as well, strategies that do not lead to matches, numbers, or girls agreeing to a date, but do lead to them showing up to the date - Interesting / meaningful bio, having a great instagram, etc.
8. Originality matters, a lot. The girls are getting bombarded with similar guys with similar looks with similar texting. Imagine a world where youre the most attractive man on the planet and every 9 on the app is matching you. What criteria would you actually be using to select girls then? Its almost certainly not looks. All of them already look good and are attractive. You would be selecting on elements that grab attention, which would be elements that are original. (Weird looks, blue hair, interesting hobbies, kinks, interesting bio, real conversations, etc).
9. You can't be a different person from your profile on the date. You can be less extreme version, but you still have to be the same thing. Originality and being loud matter a lot, but you have to be able to back them up. You don't need to be nearly as bombastic on the date itself. I like a slightly boring 2 min basic small-talk phase first, to prove to them that as loud as I am I do know how to be normal. Followed by a period of high engagement that I then convert into more investment, which I repeat over and over, but the engagement novelty gradually fades as we get into deeper and deeper topics and she invests more and more.

P.S. You cannot "burn through" the dating pool in large cities. To the extent you can, its actually a positive. If you can actually swipe through every existing account, that means you only see brand new accounts. This is a huge competitive edge. Being first matters a lot. If you're an 8, your her first match, then you're likely her first date. Before the 9s and 10s have had a chance to even show up yet. The dating pool in large cities has at least 20-50 new reasonably attractive women starting or unpausing their account per day. Do not worry about burning though matches. This is only a real thing in small isolated suburban areas where the number of new accounts per day is too low. Between Tinder/Hinge/FB/Feeld and a 14mi radius I would never, ever, ever, run out of girls within the suburb of Denver. Ever. I may run out of them for the day, but then there is another 50-60 the next.

G.N said:

I would appreciate some tips on the right mindset to have when texting chicks, a good opener, and how to build investment/comfort properly. Can't find too many good resources online as most of it is too boring or too sexual for me.

Click to expand...

Not a texting expert, but what works more often for me is being funny, concise and direct: start with a funny cold read on one of her pics or funny comment (your example is good but has one line too much, go directly to your second line). If she doesn't have much material you can cold read with on her pics, ask chatgpt to give you an opening one-liner lol. If she replies positively, suggest a meeting and switching to phone text/whatsapp/whatever. If the girl wants to text back and forth to "get to know each other" I just pass.

G.N said:

Its just a pathetic feeling after switching out a lot of my pics for better ones, thinking I will finally get the quality I want only to still fail. I think I am still just a bit bitter about my last date so I am just taking out my frustration in a not so great way. At this point I hate doing dates for "experience", Im on like 22 dates now I think I get how dates mostly work.

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Dude, I'm saying this with all the bro love in the world: fuck off. You got 67 matches, you recently went on 8 dates with fit and attractive girls, and you could have gotten laid with that last girl (and even if she was flabby I'm sure getting blown would have made your day better, not worse). Sure, you're not a Leo DiC and you're not swimming in pussy just yet, but c'mon man you gotta count your blessings. You're headed in the right direction. You got the right to feel down, I often do for no reason, but learn to take an objective look to the signs and notice when things are getting better.

Zug said:

1. Stop with bitching about texting. You may as well bitch you need to shower, diet, workout, and have a job. If its *necessary*, then whether you like it or not is irrelevant. This goes for all aspects of life. Reality and necessity trump opinions and likes. If good texting is uncomfortable for you, no one cares. Too bad. Too sexual for you? No one cares.

Click to expand...

Thats a good point, texting is one of the most essential things in dating and takes up a good portion of my interaction with women/ a woman if I am not living with them/seeing them super often. I don't think I would dislike it as much if I was able to get out the better girls of the bunch that I match with. Thats what I am trying to figure out how to do and I ask myself questions constantly, where the flaw is.

Is my opener bad?
Am I not building enough comfort?

Am I too boring?

Is she just wasting my time?

Did she have second thoughts about me?

Is it just circumstances out of my control?

There may be more, but it will take me some time if I wanted to dig out every last one.

Zug said:

2. Don't be wallpaper, don't be normal. Your currency on apps is attention, not normalcy. This trumps almost everything.
3. Be as loud as possible without being phony. (I posted about authenticity earlier today if you want more).
4. Be engaging, force responses, force engagement. (within reason, you can overdo it). Open loop openers are the best, but you need to come up with your own. Some thought / question / statement she gets part of and needs to respond to in order to get the rest. Clickbait.
5. Use the engagement you created to force her to invest, preferably emotionally. The more she invests, the more likely you are to get a date.

Click to expand...

I think some of this obsession I have with being normal is just paranoia over when I got banned and seeing how easily it can happen, but I recognize it is just mostly in my head. I think as long as I am not too sexual or offensive off the bat everything will be fine.

The first part of my current opener does accomplish the engagement point, it has the highest response rate of anything else I did. Even complimenting a girl doesn't really work super well. I could just start with "Why does you/your profile give me blanket thief cuddler/blanket thief vibes", but it works terribly on some girls I really like. It may still be engaging enough though.

Zug said:

6. The sooner the date the better. There are some very few people who will make a date with you two weeks from now and keep it, but the vast majority of tiktok adhd people have similar attention spans.
7. This one takes experience to recognize, but there are a lot of strategies you can use that will lead to numbers, or lead to girls agreeing to a date, but don't actually lead to the girl showing up on the date. They create a lot of false positives. Your goal is not matches, numbers, or girls agreeing to a date. Its girls showing up on a date (Some people try to take this further in that your goal is lays, but this is taking it too far imo. The point of solicitation is to get a meeting where you can then actually pitch the product, but without setting yourself up to fail during the pitch) The flipside is that the opposite exists as well, strategies that do not lead to matches, numbers, or girls agreeing to a date, but do lead to them showing up to the date - Interesting / meaningful bio, having a great instagram, etc.

Click to expand...

Yeah I set my dates no later than a week in advance, even that is heavily pushing it. I just ask the girls what day of the week they are free and plan using that.

I had to read your 7th point here a couple times to get it, but it makes sense now. All this work I put into my profile absolutely helps get matches but it doesn't help get dates.

Idk if you think it helps me any, but I feel I should just accept it that I am not gonna get out every girl I want to go out with. Assume I won't get the date. But regardless, I should try to do everything in my power to get her out and put more effort into my texting as a result.

TonyV said:

Not a texting expert, but what works more often for me is being funny, concise and direct: start with a funny cold read on one of her pics or funny comment (your example is good but has one line too much, go directly to your second line). If she doesn't have much material you can cold read with on her pics, ask chatgpt to give you an opening one-liner lol. If she replies positively, suggest a meeting and switching to phone text/whatsapp/whatever. If the girl wants to text back and forth to "get to know each other" I just pass.

Click to expand...

Its worth a shot, I have used AI for writing and occasional advice on very specific situations. I'll try out "Why does your profile lowkey give me blanket thief vibes" because as Zug said it forces engagement as it makes her think a little but not way too much.

TonyV said:

Dude, I'm saying this with all the bro love in the world: fuck off. You got 67 matches, you recently went on 8 dates with fit and attractive girls, and you could have gotten laid with that last girl (and even if she was flabby I'm sure getting blown would have made your day better, not worse). Sure, you're not a Leo DiC and you're not swimming in pussy just yet, but c'mon man you gotta count your blessings. You're headed in the right direction. You got the right to feel down, I often do for no reason, but learn to take an objective look to the signs and notice when things are getting better.

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Its def progress over where I was at with the apps a year ago. I simply want more dates with girls I am attracted to and have been getting sick of this "keep an open mind" bs I feel obligated to do with girls. Almost every date I actually was excited for with a cute girl went well. And almost every date I felt no excitement for and the girl was so so, went okay at best. My recent streak of girls who are insanely boring conversationally during the date has me feeling defeated, but considering its a streak I may be the problem. If I make my texting more interesting maybe Ill filter in more interesting chicks.

G.N said:

I just feel generally frustrated with the apps as I feel like all I can get from them are mediocre brown girls, and on top of that they are massively cuck so I just get even more pissed off.

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I'm not sure why you're so surprised. If you're not very conventionally attractive, online dating tends to be a big uphill battle. It's the most blackpilled way to meet girls.

I would say the hierarchy of most to least blackpilled methods to meet girls goes something like this:
Online > Nightgame > Daygame > Social circle/warm approach

Sounds like it's time to stop relying on apps. This very frustration that you're expressing is what drove me to start cold approach.

I'm not saying to stop doing apps, but if you rely on them, that's likely going to lead to misery, it's clearly not giving you what you want.

Couple that with the fact that you're in silicon valley, which has one of the worst gender ratios in all of the US. Dating apps already have bad ratios to begin with. Generally speaking, online dating is only going to get you girls that are lower value than yourself.

With all that said, it doesn't seem like you're doing half bad at all. Your expectations are just unrealistic. 67 matches is a lot, my short brown ex-roommate literally could not get a single match on Hinge. Not one.

I'm tall and white and those numbers are comparable to what I get. So you're doing pretty well.

G.N said:

I match with plenty of girls I like but they way too often stop responding after a couple of texts (which can be usually after opener or after I ask "what are you up to rn") or don't respond at all. In some cases they were just timewasters.

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Pretty normal. Girls have like 50x the amount of matches we do, and inevitably she will not be able to keep up with all of them. I'm telling you, this is normal even if your text game is impeccable.

You're not going to fuck or even go out with the overwhelming majority of girls you match with. And I'm sure you already know this.

G.N said:

I genuinely hate texting women I am interested in until after I have already been on a date, and I think this is something I need to address. I think I treat texting like ticking off a checkbox list rather than building comfort, investment, and further attraction with a girl. Part of it is feeling like if I don't act fast enough she will ghost before i can set up the date. On that list is opener, ask about hobbies, coffee or tea preference, ask when free, then set up date. That is my ideal path. I assume mediocre brown girls are more willing to put up with my bullshit because they aren't as desired as some of the other women I match with, including the hotter brown girls I actually am interested in. @zekler told me likely also this cuck shit is because they automatically see me as bf material rather than a guy they would fuck on the first date.

Click to expand...

I think you are overthinking it. Online dating is pretty damn blackpilled and texting honestly is not that important, within reason.

Of course there's a more and less optimal way to text though. Zug's already given some good advice. Here's generally what I do:

Opener: <name>, I have one question for you
her: what?

Then ask some interesting question about her, involving an assumption. I ain't giving away my material so be creative. The idea is you get her to qualify. Qualifying is an IOI.

Then you just vibe back and forth for a few messages. Don't be boring and ask basic questions. Then ladder your way to a date. I prefer to get her number, and then I plan the logistics.

Check out this article from Pancake's blog: https://pancakemouse.wordpress.com/2021/12/21/yohamis-rules-of-text-game/

A few other key principles:
- Don't push things towards a date unless/until she's compliant and receptive to you. If she's not giving you much back, she's either not interested or you need to build more comfort first.

- As I said, you should yes ladder. Asking her if she likes <insert activity> before you actually pitch the date. Every time a girl says yes to you, the more likely she'll say yes again. The same is true if she says no.

- Whenever possible, try to use let's statements or other statements that show that you're willing to lead, asking her comes across as more beta IMO.

- Try not to write significantly more than she does. Match her effort.

Overall you need to adjust your expectations. You sound like you're on the right track by asking out this gym girl. I commend you for that, because that's one of the most difficult environments to hit on girls IMO. That's how I feel at least. I can approach girls on the street but approaching a hottie in the gym would scare me to death. Haha.

G.N said:

Why does you/your profile give me blanket thief cuddler/blanket thief vibes",

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This is not a good opener. This is a TERRIBLE opener. It a decent spike in the middle of a conversation that is dying, but its not a great spike because it leads nowhere. If you're using a spike to continue a conversation that doesn't have any active topics, then the spike has to do more than just spike her emotions, it needs to generate a new topic you can lead. The reason I could eventually text almost effortlessly is because I knew not only how the girl was going to respond to my spike, but how I was going to respond afterwards in a way that moved the conversation forward towards the date.

You know how you and everyone else bitches how they have "no idea what to say"? Its because of spikes like this. It doesn't lead anywhere, there is no way to reply to it, and the few ways she can reply to it will leave you equally puzzles on how to reply back to her. This is the same reason asking a yes/no question is terrible - it doesn't lead anywhere else, it closes the active thread without generating a new one.

The reason this is such a bad opener is because not only does it have all the problems above, but it has no clickbait value whatsoever. You are getting replies because of your profile strength and because this comment spikes emotions, but don't let that fool you. This is an opener to nowhere. Plenty of women you opened with this got the message and didn't reply because there is no reason to. There has to be something in it for them. Continuing this thread and conversing with you doesn't satisfy any curiosity, nor does lead to any form of validation for them. You're basically posting a job opening that is offering $0/hr and wondering why no one is replying. Yeah the job sounds cool, but so what?

I didn't say it explicitly before, but you want to make your spikes and questions easy to reply to. Don't force her to come up with something to talk about. Don't force her to somehow generate something as an excuse to continue talking. This is the equivalent of charging her money to go on a date with you. That said, you do want to charge them with investment, preferably emotional. The difference is she shouldn't be confused about what she needs to do here. Making her put in work is fine, making her make decisions for you or solve logistical problems is anti-game. Then when she does invest, you should reward her investment with an APPROPRIATE amount of validation. This trains her that investing with you is rewarding. No one wants to open up to someone then be ignored after they put in that effort.


If you spike her emotions, make it clear how to respond, and she refuses to invest anything into the response. Then it is truly out of your hands. If the girl fails to invest appropriately after a satisfying spike, then she's not interested/busy/bitchy. You can try a subtle funny call out of this as a hail mary play. That can work, but even if it does this is the sort of girl who will ghost the date if it doesn't happen immediately.

Clickbait opener that makes it easy to progress the conversation towards her investing
her reply
Your follow up that requires minor investment from her
Provide appropriate amount of validation, then either continue topic, continue with spin off topic from her reply, or provide another spike that progresses conversation towards more investment
Repeat another 1-5 times (This is largely dependent on your style and her buying temperature)
Close by asking her if she is free on Day X or Day Y (Don't ask her what day she is free, every girl will give you a date 4-10 days out and your lead will vanish. By providing her with 2 options that already work for you, you're providing her with both the illusion of choice and the illusion that you are a busy man with only a few open timeslots)

More advanced and optional topics:
I don't like to finalize date plans on the app, as it makes texting afterwards difficult (no open threads problem)
I try to get her to text me by leaving my number. The success rate is slightly lower, but the conversion to actual date is higher. This one is more style dependent, I'm obviously dominant, and this is me training submission.
I use a google voice number with local area code, it also protects me from crazies since Im dropping my number to them somewhat unprompted.
When she texts me, I try to reply asking for her IG. My IG was decent, so this lets her vet me for DHV, provide proof of social status and community ties/safety. All of this is intended to increase ratio of date conversion. Also, getting her IG lets me vet her for catfishing.
There's some girls where there is literally no way to win. Meaning they agreed to a date, but its too far out to keep her attention that long. Either you have to over-invest in texting her to the point she doesn't want to go out with you, or you don't text her enough to keep her engaged. There's strategies to close this gap, but fundamentally you need to understand sometimes this is too big of a lift in many cases.
Many strategies are archetype dependent. Imagine two twins. If one has a profile that communicates "I'm an older dominant man who is very busy", then he can't have a texting style where you write pages back and forth for a few days. The exact same strategy may be crazy successful for a different twin whose archetype communicates "Intellectual, love academia + tortured artist".
Voice notes, images, and phone calls can REALLY work. I've seen it be very successful for many guys. However, I personally didn't get much out of them. Some stuff really works, but only with a certain archetype of man/profile.

G.N said:

I simply want more dates with girls I am attracted to and have been getting sick of this "keep an open mind" bs I feel obligated to do with girls

Click to expand...

I hear ya, been there done that myself, until I realized it's 100% a me problem (in your case a you problem), as in, I'm the one deciding which girl I choose to pursue and spend my time and energy on. You're totally right, "keep an open mind" is BS and any guy with enough experience will tell you, it's only once every other blue moon that you meet a girl who was initially not that interesting but turns out to be fantastic after digging a bit more.

Also, very few girls are gonna give you the benefit of doubt, so it's fair to not start anything yourself unless you feel from the get go that you really want the girl.

Last thing, learn to fail fast. If a girl shows up and turn out to be an obese catfish, or after 15 min of conversation with you pulling jokes and flirts she still doesn't drop her dull manners and RBF, get your balls up and cut it short with honesty, directness and sympathy. "Hey let me be honest, I really appreciate that you came here, I don't wanna waste our time, I just feel like it's not gonna work. I really wish you the best of luck, and you take it easy." and take off.

Squilliam said:

I'm not sure why you're so surprised. If you're not very conventionally attractive, online dating tends to be a big uphill battle. It's the most blackpilled way to meet girls.

I would say the hierarchy of most to least blackpilled methods to meet girls goes something like this:
Online > Nightgame > Daygame > Social circle/warm approach

Sounds like it's time to stop relying on apps. This very frustration that you're expressing is what drove me to start cold approach.

I'm not saying to stop doing apps, but if you rely on them, that's likely going to lead to misery, it's clearly not giving you what you want.

Couple that with the fact that you're in silicon valley, which has one of the worst gender ratios in all of the US. Dating apps already have bad ratios to begin with. Generally speaking, online dating is only going to get you girls that are lower value than yourself.

Click to expand...

Thats true, you never hear of a mid or ugly guy succeeding on the apps without massively overhauling everything about themselves. I had to overhaul a lot myself.

I have been really tempted to delete the apps again, or at least for a little while to get back into cold approach and work on my mental issues. I am a little worried resetting again despite being banned before would get me banned again when I try to reset. I haven't been banned on the current apple ID or number I use so idk if that will happen. But besides that I think it is the cause of a lot of my negativity among other things. Its true though, I feel like the only girls I can get out are lower value, meanwhile IRL I have managed to get girls out who are my SMV or higher, so really the only reason I am relying on the apps is convenience, which I need to let go of.

Squilliam said:

With all that said, it doesn't seem like you're doing half bad at all. Your expectations are just unrealistic. 67 matches is a lot, my short brown ex-roommate literally could not get a single match on Hinge. Not one.

I'm tall and white and those numbers are comparable to what I get. So you're doing pretty well.

Click to expand...

Im not upset about the match number, its insanely good and tells me premium absolutely works if your profile is good enough. My issue is with the fact I can't get out a lot of girls I want and have to settle for the mid ones. Then I go on dates with them and the date is mid, I get cucked, get more angry, and my mental state gets worse. Nobody benefits. I feel I am not good enough which is the exact mindset I have been trying to escape for so long, only to fall right back.

Squilliam said:

I think you are overthinking it. Online dating is pretty damn blackpilled and texting honestly is not that important, within reason.

Of course there's a more and less optimal way to text though. Zug's already given some good advice. Here's generally what I do:

Opener: <name>, I have one question for you
her: what?

Then ask some interesting question about her, involving an assumption. I ain't giving away my material so be creative. The idea is you get her to qualify. Qualifying is an IOI.

Then you just vibe back and forth for a few messages. Don't be boring and ask basic questions. Then ladder your way to a date. I prefer to get her number, and then I plan the logistics.

Check out this article from Pancake's blog: https://pancakemouse.wordpress.com/2021/12/21/yohamis-rules-of-text-game/

A few other key principles:
- Don't push things towards a date unless/until she's compliant and receptive to you. If she's not giving you much back, she's either not interested or you need to build more comfort first.

- As I said, you should yes ladder. Asking her if she likes <insert activity> before you actually pitch the date. Every time a girl says yes to you, the more likely she'll say yes again. The same is true if she says no.

- Whenever possible, try to use let's statements or other statements that show that you're willing to lead, asking her comes across as more beta IMO.

- Try not to write significantly more than she does. Match her effort.

Overall you need to adjust your expectations. You sound like you're on the right track by asking out this gym girl. I commend you for that, because that's one of the most difficult environments to hit on girls IMO. That's how I feel at least. I can approach girls on the street but approaching a hottie in the gym would scare me to death. Haha.

Click to expand...

Im working on a new opener, it takes a while to come up with new ideas. The article helps a bunch, I checked out some of it. I see I am guilty of some of these things he says not to do.

The yes ladder is a new term, I see where you come from on it. I think I just turn my brain off and do everything in my power to set the date, which isn't the best strategy. Other statements you made are good, I already do the let's statements and don't textmog too much.

With girls in the gym the main thing I and others may need is a good icebreaker. I can't just go up to them and say they are cute. I have to initiate convo with her in a way that isn't totally intentional but its chill.

TonyV said:

I hear ya, been there done that myself, until I realized it's 100% a me problem (in your case a you problem), as in, I'm the one deciding which girl I choose to pursue and spend my time and energy on. You're totally right, "keep an open mind" is BS and any guy with enough experience will tell you, it's only once every other blue moon that you meet a girl who was initially not that interesting but turns out to be fantastic after digging a bit more.

Also, very few girls are gonna give you the benefit of doubt, so it's fair to not start anything yourself unless you feel from the get go that you really want the girl.

Last thing, learn to fail fast. If a girl shows up and turn out to be an obese catfish, or after 15 min of conversation with you pulling jokes and flirts she still doesn't drop her dull manners and RBF, get your balls up and cut it short with honesty, directness and sympathy. "Hey let me be honest, I really appreciate that you came here, I don't wanna waste our time, I just feel like it's not gonna work. I really wish you the best of luck, and you take it easy." and take off.

Click to expand...

Ive probably only had one girl keeping an open mind with kind of worked and it wasn't cuz initially I found her unattractive, just a very different appearance and archetype from what I was used to. When I got to know her I found the rest of her attractive, and saw some gf potential in her. That ended up being a failed month long talking stage I still think about to this day.

Other times though I have encountered usually girls who are at least somewhat above average in attractiveness have the best personalities. Most ugly or below average girls I don't enjoy talking to and frequently I encounter repulsive personalities. Some of the nicest and chillest girls I have met were absolute bombshells.

Im done doing dates for the sake of experience alone. It feels like a waste of time, money, and energy and it only makes me unhappy and doubt myself more.

I still have a hard time just straight up rejecting girls. I just recently had a date with a girl who came 1.5 hours to see me. I didn't find her that attractive, but I felt bad leaving early because I didn't want to let her down. So I tried to be the good guy and give her a good date. When it was all said and done I went home unsatisfied and annoyed because I felt I got nothing out of the date. But I agree with you, I should be more assertive in that regard.

9/9:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 2780
Protein: 134g
Gym: 0/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/10:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3111
Protein: 142g
Gym: 1/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/11:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3065
Protein: 137g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/12:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3292
Protein: 135g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/13:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3274
Protein: 149g
Gym: 3/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/14:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 1664
Protein: 81g
Gym: 4/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

9/15:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 1522
Protein: 86g
Gym: 4/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

Love your consistency bro.

Really proud of you.

9/16:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3013
Protein: 160g
Gym: 1/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

9/17:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3244
Protein: 150g
Gym: 1/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

9/18:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3238
Protein: 165g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

9/19:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3011
Protein: 149g
Gym: 2/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: No
Skincare: Yes

9/20:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3063
Protein: 141g
Gym: 3/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes

9/21:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3111
Protein: 152g
Gym: 3/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes


9/22:

Daily Actions:
Today's Calories: 3004
Protein: 144g
Gym: 4/4
Meditation: Yes
Journal: Yes
30 Minute Phoneless Walk: Yes
Electronics off 1 hour before bed: Yes
Skincare: Yes


Notes:

Past two weeks haven’t been really all that great for me. My confidence has been at my lowest point recently as of late. Even still I don’t want to let it affect my habits too much. I’m still going to the gym, taking care of my skin, getting enough sleep, eating enough calories/protein, and trying to do some of the good habits I have.

I had a date last Sunday with this girl who drove about 1.5 hour to see me. So I thought that’s pretty high compliance, getting laid shouldn’t be all that hard since she can’t say some shit about how she has some event to go to because she most likely blocked off the whole day for me. Since she was coming far I thought I should take her to some lunch place instead of coffee because I guess it just felt like the right thing to do. But the day prior I hung out with my friends and we ate a really massive lunch, which had me so full I skipped dinner that night. Also, I had no appetite going into this date and I was wondering what to do and how to tell her. She told me over text she just got braces, and I remembered eating may be hard for her. This worked heavy in my favor, also I hadn’t been to the area in a while so I saw a new coffee shop opened up. So when she got there I suggested we go there and she was down. Big W for my stomach and my toilet.

Actual date just was super meh. She was a mid Latina and conversationally I didn’t really enjoy talking to her, I felt like I was pulling more weight. Even when I tried to talk about things she’s interested in to get more out of her, it didn’t yield much. She also said a bunch of shit about how she’s shy, and this came about a lot when I was trying to build tension. This was probably the most cuck date I’ve been on. I mainly say this because of the time input and result. Also how the fuck are you shy yet drive 1.5 hours to see a random dude on Hinge. I keep saying “keep an open mind maybe they are cool” but no, it’s rare a girl I’m not super attracted to turns out to be fun to be around romantically. As a friend yeah its happened but I’m not on Hinge for friends. So that fucking sucked, but the coffee/boba shop was really good so I figured I’d go there next time with my brother whenever he is in town again.

I just felt so sick of boring girls so I cancelled my two other dates I set up with some girls who looked slightly on the chubby side figuring I’d just be wasting my time. Well not canceled I just flaked, unmatched, and unfollowed them on IG. I was trying to set this date with this cute Latina instead but she ghosted last minute. Fuck.

Next day I had a pretty bad fight with my family that has probably been the catalyst to how I’m feeling right now. How it started was Monday morning I was chilling in my room and I heard a thud. Big mistake I made was I just said I would finish my morning tea then go see what it was. I did that and came down and saw my dog got into my dad’s lunch and put his mouth on it. My mom took a lot of time to make it, and I accidentally mentioned to my dad I heard the thud, but just assumed it was a big pot or something that moved in the sink as that tends to make a similar sound. And we did have some stuff in the sink so it’s a valid statement. Plus his lunch was in a place my dog usually can’t get to, so I didn’t even think that would happen. I told my dad and he got mad that I didn’t take immediate notice. Before he went off to work I told him we shouldn’t tell her but he did anyway.

But before this happened my mom came home and we talked a bit. She mentioned how she thought I looked down and how I should tell her what’s on my mind. I’ve been open with her before so I just said I’m struggling with dating and that I feel inadequate. We had a good conversation about it and I felt better after.

But the bad part is when my dad came home this fucking idiot told her about what my dog did in a joking way to her even though he KNOWS my mom is the homemaker. This is basically shitting on her hard work making lunch for my dad. She absolutely went BALLISTIC and raged at both of us, especially me for my negligence. It would have been fine if it stopped there but she started targeting my insecurities with dating and about how I’m “always having problems”. Also brought up my expensive gyno surgery and how I still have body self esteem issues. She also said stuff about how I’m always going to be a negative person and have “no self confidence”. My dad basically joined her in order to take some of the heat off himself. They also said to stop seeing my therapist because it’s expensive and useless. I would pay for it myself but I’m struggling to find a job right now despite all the applications I’ve sent out. I felt like their whole thing was just telling me my feelings are invalid and that I should just be happy because I have more comforts than the average person. I’m grateful for it yes but am I not allowed to have issues with myself?

I just felt overall betrayed. I confided in my mom when I felt low and the moment she got angry she threw it back in my face when angry. I pray to god my future partner is not like this. I did confront my mom about how I thought what she said was hurtful and she told me she didn’t mean the more extreme statements and did say how I should work on my confidence and all that.

There is some truth to what they said though. My thought patterns seem to skew negatively when it comes to more delicate topics like dating.

I think a lot of the low self confidence just comes from my recent results on the apps and just not finding the girls attractive physically, personality wise, or both. Even though I got 70+ matches I couldn’t get any of the girls I actually wanted out. With the way things are right now I just have this belief I am doomed to mid girls unless I get jacked/lean. Thats all I believe will allow me to get these girls out but it’ll take years. Who knows though, maybe it truly is just a location issue and once I move to an area with more quality girls I’ll proportionally get some good ones out again.

I’m thinking of deleting the apps for a short period of time, most likely a month or up until I move out for grad school to reflect on what I’ve been doing. What has been working and what has not. I want to examine my mindset and thought processes as well. Also to maybe look closer at what I want in a girl and to temper my expectations. I need to take some accountability because if I am constantly having a certain issue, maybe I am the problem.

I don’t know if dating apps are the place to find a gf though I have encountered some cool girls from these. Feels like the majority is just crap though. I don’t want super hot girls or anything, sure it would be nice but a girl being hot and nothing much more doesn’t make a house a home.

Another reason for this move is I’m trying to force myself to cold approach because I figure I’ll probably at least have some good interactions with women, and subconsciously remove some of the bitterness with women the apps gave me. Plus in the event I do get a date likely it’ll be more quality than anything I get online. I can also filter better, if the convo during the approach sucks I can easily abort. But even with that being said I haven’t gotten off my ass to do it, it’s probably just cuz I feel like shit about my body and I believe women will think the same, even though irl I can leverage other stuff even if I’m lacking in some physical areas. Even when I see women I could approach my mind immediately jumps to negatives about myself and I just don’t go for it. It's getting bad.

It could just be a self fulfilling prophecy. Women can likely sense I’m insecure, and get turned off because of that. And they won’t let me know this so I’m stuck believing it’s because of my looks.

To take at least some action to dealing with my negativity I bought a physical copy of “You can’t afford the luxury of a negative thought”, and made it a point to read at least a few pages each day. Easy enough, I keep the book right by my bedside anyways. Hopefully I can learn something from it and get some new insights.

For the job stuff I feel hopeless but I’m still sending out some apps. I also did potentially pick up a new client for tutoring, so right now I need to focus on doing a bang up job on the first session so she becomes a regular. Its in a subject I am not amazing at but I have studied it a bunch so I want to give it a shot and make a little extra pocket change.

I got into a couple of grad schools that I applied to, they’re alright ones but the ones for the really good schools come out much later. Hoping for the best there.

Inner game bro.

I can relate to a lot of your post.

What I'm realizing is, without the proper inner game and positive self-beliefs, it's next to impossible to get consistent results.

Taking a break from the apps isn't the worst idea. Recently when approaching I basically stopped using apps. Not formally but it kinda just went on the backburner. Even when I was getting no dates, I was feeling much more content without the apps. When I decided to go back on them recently, I became filled with rage again and remembered why I stopped in the first place.

Your parents' behavior is toxic. Throwing stuff like that back in your face when it's not even relevant to the argument is toxic, immature behavior, straight up. A good argument will be focused on the subject at hand. If you have to resort to attacking the person you're arguing with, then you probably don't have much of an argument in the first place.

As to the looks vs game argument. If you're not getting dates with the girls you want it's your looks. If you're getting the dates with girls you want but you're not closing, it's your game.

Online dating is hypergamous, due to the ratio, as I've said before.

If you wanna do better on online, work more on looksmaxxing, and get new photos, it doesn't seem like you've hit your ceiling yet.

And I suggest starting cold approach. Even if you don't get laid from it or even any dates, the skills you develop from it are invaluable, and in my opinion, worth it. That's why I haven't quit approaching despite 1200+ approaches with zero lays.

I struggle with a lot of the same issues so I'm not really in a place to confidently give out inner game advice, take this with a grain of salt. Just my two cents.

Squilliam said:

As to the looks vs game argument. If you're not getting dates with the girls you want it's your looks.

Click to expand...

God these apps are fucking brutal. Literally 99% of things that could potentially improve my looks and therefore results take years, so I just believe I am gonna get the same mediocre results for a while. I could also just learn some photo tricks to make myself look better.

Squilliam said:

Taking a break from the apps isn't the worst idea. Recently when approaching I basically stopped using apps. Not formally but it kinda just went on the backburner. Even when I was getting no dates, I was feeling much more content without the apps. When I decided to go back on them recently, I became filled with rage again and remembered why I stopped in the first place.

Click to expand...

I pulled the trigger last night, deleted my Hinge and Bumble. I still don't feel "free", but I think I will adjust after a few days without them. I need to get my confidence back, and to have positive interactions with women. On the apps they just come off as very unfeeling creatures.

Squilliam said:

And I suggest starting cold approach. Even if you don't get laid from it or even any dates, the skills you develop from it are invaluable, and in my opinion, worth it. That's why I haven't quit approaching despite 1200+ approaches with zero lays.

Click to expand...

Id learn way more from it than another date with a mediocre chick. A couple of days no apps will slow down my negative thoughts enough to where I can take action without them holding me back.

G.N said:

God these apps are fucking brutal. Literally 99% of things that could potentially improve my looks and therefore results take years, so I just believe I am gonna get the same mediocre results for a while. I could also just learn some photo tricks to make myself look better.

Click to expand...

On the bright side it doesn't seem like you have maxed out your looks. So you definitely have more potential to improve.

Apps unfortunately are becoming more and more competitive. Some day I'd like to ditch them for good.

G.N said:

I need to get my confidence back, and to have positive interactions with women. On the apps they just come off as very unfeeling creatures.

Click to expand...

I agree. This is one big reason I don't like apps. The concept in itself is kinda dehumanizing. When I'm faced with an actual woman's humanity in real life, I generally feel a lot better, even when I don't get the outcome I want.

G.N said:

Id learn way more from it than another date with a mediocre chick. A couple of days no apps will slow down my negative thoughts enough to where I can take action without them holding me back.

Click to expand...

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that cold approach is some sort of panacea. You'll probably actually learn a lot more on a date with a mediocre chick, versus a 20 second blowout where you barely get to say much.