Brandon Builds - #38 Poly Girl

[Bman]

Alright. Taking a dose of my own medicine I prescribed to ThePermanentFix.

You keep showing up. That's a good start. If you want to go faster, admit your weaknesses to yourself. Then humble yourself and ask for help. When you receive the help, go implement it. Let us know how implementation went. Repeat the process. By the end you'll be slaying girls and rolling in the bank.

Disclaimer: I know we’re not heavy on theory here, but theory helps me to create frameworks for my understanding. I need to know how and why something works. So as I have done with my other posts, please read this and then take action. Theory > Action > Theory > Action. Repeat ad nauseam until death.

What Women Need to Have Sex with You

Need 1: A Lower Perceived Value

Recently Aella wrote “Good at Sex: Seduction Via Narrative Reinforcement (pt 7)” about seduction, game, and SMV from a woman’s perspective.

In the article she states:

“A women’s core sexual drive is this: That you fucking her is clear evidence that she is sexually valuable, because you are more valuable than she is. If she were less valuable, she would have failed to get you to fuck her. You fucking her is evidence that she is more sexually valuable than other women, who have failed to get you to fuck them.”

This followed some of the lessons I had learned, but not fully internalized yet from Yohami’s notes about “Top Guy” behavior. Thanks to Pancake for posting the “Yohami’s Rules of Text Game”, triggering me to take a read again and get the same indicator.

Excerpt from From Yohami’s Rules of Text Game:

“So any success while in the bottom frame is either:

A) Her actual self perceived value is under yours, so to her you’re not bottom (thus all your work was unnecessary). This disorients you as you don’t know exactly what you did to get this girl – it’s not something you can repeat on command, so what happened?

OR

B) She’s taking you BECAUSE of the value gap AND because she benefits from all the work you’re putting in. This is the real danger as it gives you a taste of validation. This one teaches you to work more, and fixates you on specific things you did that somehow don’t tend to repeat and can’t get another girl by working the same exact bits, but you keep trying!

When I’m writing about seduction here, I’m always talking about case A. The girl who is seeing you as above her value and is offering compliance, is turned on, is not playing machiavellian games, doesn’t want your demise. The girl who is HAPPY to see you UP, wants your leadership, wants to play the feminine to your masculine.”

So in one sentence: For a woman to fuck you, she needs to perceive your value being higher than hers.


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Before we go any further, let’s separate value from perceived value. Perceived value is a judgment from another person about where you are in the social hierarchy and your ability to contribute. Your thoughts of “I’m not good enough” are rooted in your inability to separate your value as a human being from the perceived value of your contribution to society. I knew this toxic thought all too well. For a primer on Self esteem and addressing this separation, see this lay report. Alright, back to Game.

Everything we do in Game is to influence the woman’s perception of our value. Some actions will improve their perception of us or will lower their perception of themselves thus making our perceived value higher.


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So we have two options: improve our perceived value or decrease her self perceived value.

Examples of ways to increase our perceived value:

• Self-Improvement: Everything this forum is about. Whether improving looks, financial situation, status, lifestyle, and so on, we actually improve our value in the world so that we do not need to do anything to really show it. It’s just who we are.
• Abundant Behavior: This means doing behaviors that are congruent with those who have valuable lives. For example, having multiple women in their life, being able to lead others, or being able to afford travel.
• DHV: When we share a story or show a physical symbol that we do in fact live a high value lifestyle.

Examples of ways to decrease our perceived value:

• Scarcity/ Needy Behavior: If we act like she is the only woman in our world and we need her to fulfill our every need, we are clearly not abundant.
• Self-Deprecation: Thinking and saying phrases that show we see ourselves as lower value, not good enough, and worthless, even if done with humor.
• Empathy: Shifts perception that we are alike in many ways, value being one of those. This will close the gap between her perception of herself and you. More on this later.

Examples of ways to increase her self perceived value:

• Pedestalizing: If you worship her, she is undoubtedly above you.
• Validating with Attention: The multi-billion dollar attention economy should be enough evidence to show its value. If you are giving all your attention to her, you are giving her that value.
• Compliments: You will make her feel good about herself, particularly if compliment something about herself that she really values, such as beauty. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Just realize that it will close the gap in perceived value. If you have plenty of gap, compliment away if you wish. If the gap is small, you may wish to hold the compliments.

Examples of ways to decrease her self perceived value:

• Challenging: Putting you two in a demonstration of value against each other and showing that you have greater efficacy at that thing. For example, play wrestling shows you have greater strength.
• Degradation: Words or actions that actively and explicitly put her beneath you in some dimension.
• Teasing: Calling out a subtle difference or behavior that demonstrates that she is lower in value than you are in some dimension.

For those that follow anything I post here, you know I've talked a lot about empathy. If empathy closes the gap on perceived value, and will actively hurt me if I am perceived higher, why am I using it?

Short answer: I didn’t know what I was actually doing.

Long answer…

Need 2: Safety

In order for a woman to have sex with you, and subsequently to orgasm later, she needs to feel safe. Not so safe that she has no arousal, but safe enough that her arousal is not stressing her out.

What stresses her out the most and makes her feel unsafe is being unfamiliar with who you are, or perceiving you as a stranger, outsider, or foreigner.

As tribal creatures, we kill those who are not like us (or at least we used to).

However, if she becomes too familiar with you, there is no arousal, no alertness, no attention paid to you. She see’s you’re just like her. If you’re just like her, then you’re a friend, not a foe.

If we want to fuck them, then we must remain out of the kill zone and the friend zone.





Examples of ways to stay out of the friend zone:

• Polarization: Showing how you have different beliefs, values, and thoughts.
• Man to Woman: Showing the distinction between genders in any dimension.
• Breaking Rapport: Breaking connection with a flirt, a tease, or a command.

Examples of ways to stay out of the kill zone:

• Empathy: Showing that just because you come from a different environment, you are not so different from them. You understand them, despite your differences.
• Us vs Them: Creating a frame that you two are the ones that are alike, and everyone else is different. Making your own special bubble, just for you two.
• Building Rapport: Creates trust by identifying shared feelings, values and perspectives.

So why am I using empathy so much?

I’ve always been an outsider. Being poor had put me outside of higher social classes. Moving around all the time meant I was always the new kid. I have no brothers or sisters, so it was just me, all the time. I also have a slightly rebellious spirit and tend to ask why of almost every societal standard, molding my life to be inline with what I value, not what others tell me to value. So while I may be following something that some other people do, I always have a caveat, an exception, something I’m doing differently. Even the outsiders I was an outsider of. Most kids having my background would have been in trouble. I decided to focus on excelling in school. Of course then I look odd dressed like a hoodlum going into college. Never really got close with any extended family, so even my own kin I have felt outside of. Anyways, you get the picture.

Side note: No surprise I want solo travel in a van and moving every few months…

What that meant was if I wanted to have relationships with anyone, I was going to have to show them that just because I’m different, we’re still both humans, and I understand your experiences, culture, and groups you are a part of. The greatest tool I have found to do that was empathy. What I unconsciously learned was that empathy would make me familiar AND would help raise my perceived value if I were below the other person, which I often was. If someone is above you in perceived value, and that person empathizes with you and sees you are like them, then they unknowingly have admitted that either you are more valuable than previously thought, or they are less valuable than previously thought, closing the perceived value gap so that you are equals.

Ok, great. But equals are not sexy. Sameness is not sexy. Empathy will help satisfy Need 2: Safety, but will not help satisfy Need 1: a lower perceived value than you.

If you are already equals and you use empathy you will do nothing because the gap is already closed. If you use empathy and your perceived value is higher, you are losing points.

Now let’s overlay Need 1 as the Y axis with Need 2 as the X axis to see how these two needs correlate and where the sweet spot to be is.


Need 1 & Need 2 Together


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In this graph, our lady is the pink box. We are the blue box. Yes I used stereotypical colors to define genders. Sue me.

If she perceives you as higher value, and you are just like her (or what she wants to be), she will respect you. If you approach her, she will be excited nervous.

If she perceives you as higher value, and you a stranger, she will fear you. If you approach her, she will be scared nervous.

If she perceives you as lower value, and you are just like her, she will give you sympathy, but she will not respect you. If you approach her, she will deflect with a kind rejection.

If she perceives you as lower value, and you are a stranger, she will be disgusted. If you approach her, she will harshly reject you.

In order to have sex with her we need to be perceived higher than her AND have just enough familiarity that she feels safe. This is our Fuck Zone.

If you have been working on your self improvement, being perceived by her as being of higher value, and you start using empathy, you will slide right into the LTR Zone.

If you keep using empathy, you will close the perceived value gap needed to have sex and become so similar to each other that you’re like brother and sister, or practically the same person. Landing you right in the Friend Zone.

There is a degree of empathy needed for long term relationships. You will have to compromise sometimes, which may lower your perceived value depending on the compromise. You’re also trying to build a life together and accomplish tasks for doing so like having a child for example. In order to do so, you’re going to have to see at least some things in a similar way. If you maintain polarity, you can still fuck while doing all this. If you become too similar, you will have a dead bedroom, which is just a contractually obligated friendzone.

Note on The Dark Tetrad: I believe these strategies work so well because they exaggerate the perceived value gap but those using them have just enough wherewithal to not be entirely different and trigger stranger danger.

Note on D/s: Dominance works both axes at the same time. It creates polarity and a man to woman frame. It also actively raises her perceived value of you by the nature of the activities you are doing. Her kneeling beneath you, for example. Submissive will work the axes in the reverse. If we look at marriage, you are submitting to her frame to some degree.

Now I know there are submissive men who enjoy happy sex lives. However, in my time in the scene, I see many FemDoms who hate men and they top because men are perceived as less. I’ve heard women say, “I don’t mind topping a man for kink play, but I would never have sex with him. I wouldn’t respect him.” For the guys who are submissive and actively having sex with their Dommes, I would guess that they are being perceived as higher value in some other dimension. For example, the guy who is a high achieving CEO who wants to get his balls busted in the bedroom.

Ok enough theory. What’s this mean for me?

 

[Bman]

Continuing from post 1...

Brief Review of My Game

Here is a breakdown of the past 35 lays and a few case studies of dates that I wish I had closed, but ended up losing.

Lay 1: Cam Girl (yes I lost my virginity to a cam girl. No, not on camera).
Reason for closing: Not sure… Was so long ago. I used craigslist casual encounters to get it but do not remember what I put in the ad, or if I responded to hers, or what we said in messages.
Retention: Yes. Despite being a virgin, she thought my sex skills were really good. She could not believe I was actually a virgin. Higher perceived value.

Lay 2: Obese Girl (I had very low self esteem. I’m not proud of it. That was the past).
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by default.
Retention: …no. I was disgusted with myself. Story for another time.

Lay 3: Ex Wife (Amazing what working on your self esteem does)
Reason for closing: I was an outsider to her. I thought she was weird at first. She thought I was kind of scary. Then she saw I was top of our class and DHV consistently in competence presenting my architecture projects. We became more familiar with each other over time in the social circle. I closed shortly after a party where I deliberately had another attractive girl in our class intimately sitting on my lap most of the night. She told me later she kept thinking “why is x over there on her lap”.
Retention: Yes. I took her virginity. I had a lot of perceived potential value.
Divorce: Taking full responsibility that I allowed the value gap to close and become too familiar. When we first got married, I had a full time job in architecture. She did not because she did not get a masters degree like I did. With my income, and doing some side hustles, I bought us a two story house. Then I realized I didn’t really want any of that. Quit my job and became a struggling freelancer while she improved her situation by getting a full time job in real estate. I finally caught up later but the value gap closed. At the same time all the differences that made me hot in the beginning, I slowly let fade. We became very efficient as a team getting things done and communicating with each other, but the lustful attraction was not there. There was no polarity. Contractually obligated friend zone.

Lay 4: First lay after divorce
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement and lifestyle.
Retention: No. I chased afterwards. Needy behavior. Chasing is death.

Lay 5: B Level Sorority Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, Top guy behavior. Actually my fastest close I think. 15-20 minutes. I’d gotten the basics of fashion down. Sat on the same side (before I knew it was something I needed to be doing) and started using Andy’s BDSM script so the sexual frame was already built. I remember her being an excited nervous. I was a nervous confident. It worked out.
Retention: Yes. Sex was good and I empathized only after the lay during pillow talk. Only ended because she moved for grad school a few months later.

Lay 6: Jeweller Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, confidence in sexuality.
Retention: No. Not sure why.

Lay 7: Architect Girl
Reason for closing: Balance of rapport building and breaking. We were touching each other quite quickly.
Retention: Did get ED but she was going to come over again. We messaged a couple times, set a date and time. Then never heard from her again.

Lay 8: Strawberry Girl
Reason for closing: Very confident behavior, lack of self deprecating behavior.
Retention: No. Can’t remember at all what happened in the days after.

Lay 9: Wednesday Girl
Reason for closing: One of my hottest lays achieved by acting as if I was higher than her (arrogance) and teasing her. I remember she was an interior designer, which we then obviously connected over design. But I remember breaking rapport some. She even called me an asshole or dick at one point. I remember her being quite nervous. She’s called Wednesday girl because she asked something around me having multiple partners (top guy behavior) mentioning if she would be Wednesday girl. Honestly, I don’t even know how I knew to act this way, but I did.
Retention: No. I chased afterwards. Needy behavior. Chasing is death.

Lay 10: Black Meek
Reason for closing: Took 2 dates. She wanted to “just feel me out” on the first date. Second she came straight to mine. I didn’t chase and didn’t fall into her frame. So I was probably perceived as higher value in some dimension and I just didn’t fuck that up.
Retention: No. That girl did not know what a calendar was and was shit at communication. I couldn’t be bothered.

Lay 11: Cheerleader Girl
Reason for closing: Right place, right time. She wanted an adventure in BDSM. Just didn’t fuck up and lower my perceived value.
Retention: No. Really think she was just looking to try it once. I was above the threshold for that.

Lay 12: Southern Girl
Reason for closing: Blatantly told me she assumed I was seeing other girls. Top guy.
Retention: No. Just mismatched schedules.

Lay 13: Cinderella Girl
Reason for closing: 2 dates. Empathy & Rapport building, but sexual Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. And honestly, not sure why. It seemed so solid. We tried once to set another date. Something came up. Then, I chased?

Lay #14: Travel Girl
Reason for closing: I don’t know. This girl actually seemed stronger in every perceived dimension and was definitely a high achieving, dominant, corporate girl, but not the kind that then melts as a submissive in the bedroom. I don’t recall actively making her self-perceived value go down. We had 2 dates and she even had a trip in between and had to reschedule, and still made it over for the 2nd date for the lay. Wish I had the audio for this because my lay report is lacking.
Retention: No. Think we tried twice to schedule. Didn’t pan out.

Lay #15: The Feminist
Reason for closing: Hahahaha… christ. I survived all her shit tests.
Retention: No. Thank goodness.

Lay #16: Christmas Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by self improvement, top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Mismatched schedules

Lay #17: Ad Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value by sexual skills, first girl from FetLife. Needed comfort for the close.
Retention: Yes for many months. I rotated her out when I built a harem later.

Lay #18: Spiritual Girl
Reason for closing: Actually, in my head on this one I was actively self deprecating myself. I held my composure on the date though. But I think empathy closed the gap. Then I was aware enough to capture her high energy she was feeling, move it towards sex confidently, then pull. Despiste having some ED issues, she said she’d never have had anyone be so sexually skillful. I was also her first date off Feel’d and her first Dom.
Retention: Yes for a whole year. I rotated her out for other girls. But she was great.

Lay #19: Dancer Girl
Reason for closing: This girl was a babe. Had the date while reading Yohami’s notes. She perceived me as really hot, I did some teasing, man to woman frames, and just didn’t do anti-game behaviors.
Retention: No. Mismatched schedules and I chased a bit. Chasing is death.

Lay #20: Psychedelic Girl
Reason for closing: Higher perceived value achieved through self development, preselection.
Retention: Yes for a few months until she tried to start drama for being jealous of other girls.

Lay #21: Pole Girl
Reason for closing: High achieving woman who self described herself as boujee, yet she was enthralled by ambition. I also took the lead, which compared to the other guys she dated, was a big step up. Also she thought I was very muscular. Higher perceived value.
Retention: No. Outdone by a pair of Chads who spoke French in her ear and she wanted to explore the relationship more with them.

Lay #22: Spanking Girl
Reason for closing: She said that how comfortable I was expressing my sexuality on the date was a big green flag. Confident, top guy behavior.
Retention: No. She lived quite far out.

Lay #23: Buddhist Girl
Reason for closing: Top guy behavior, some empathy & comfort to close
Retention: No. She had a medical condition occurring then. Tried a few weeks. Probably chasing. Chasing is Death. But she added me on FetLife and we have a rekindling date next week after several months.

Lay #24: Event Girl
Reason for closing: Aloof. She chased me. Status. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #25: Lips Girl
Reason for closing: Munch lead. She chased me. Status. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #26: Politics Girl
Reason for closing: Top guy behavior. Dominant and she is very submissive. Respects me a lot. I’m betting the perceived gap was large in her mind. A lot of comfort to close.
Retention: Yes. One of my faves.

Lay #27: Dress Girl
Reason: Dominant, top Guy behavior, except I actually felt like I had self-esteem here. Something clicked. Good mix of comfort and breaking rapport.
Retention: No. Chased to set next date. Chasing is death.

Lay #28: Trio Girl
Reason: I was hot to her. Dominant and led frame, even in token resistance at pull. Top guy behavior.
Retention: No. Outdone by a 6’4 hung, muscular, fucking giga chad. Dude is handsome as fuck. She wanted to “see where that relationship would go”. Yeah, I get it. SMV.

Lay #29: Sorority Girl
Reason: Didn’t chase. Matched a whole year beforehand. Happened to rematch. Teased a lot on the date. I did pedestalize her some but later found out that she assumed I was having a ton of beautiful girls in my bed all the time. Higher perceived value.
Retention: No. Chased… fucking christ. Stop it. Chasing is death.

Lay #30: Rope Bunny
Reason: She had a very high self perceived value. Active preselection, witnessing my leadership, closing the gap some with empathy, confident and NOT doing bottom guy behavior
Retention:Yes, but was still a high maintenance princess if not in the bedroom. Fizzled out due to my lack of effort to keep it going.

Lay #31: NY Blonde
Reason: Pure status & preselection.
Retention: No. I didn’t want to.

Lay #32: Bratty Indian Girl
Reason: Already knew before the date I was being perceived as higher value because she told me. I comforted some, but held open the gap and just rode staying in the fuck zone till I decided to close.
Retention: No. I didn’t want to.

Lay #33: Property Girl
Reason: Complete comfort girl. I just needed to make her feel safe.
Retention: Yes. Current rotation.

Lay #34: Tantra Girl
Reason: Preselection. Status. Sexual skill value.
Retention: No. Didn’t want to.

Lay #35: Nurse Girl
Reason: Status. Top Guy behavior and comfortable around women. She respects the shit out of me. Some empathy and comfort, but probably not needed.
Retention: Yes. Current rotation.

Case studies that I wanted but I actively fucked up:

November Girl: On some metrics she had more perceived value, on others I did. We probably met somewhere in the middle. Matched before thanksgiving break and did not get to a date til after. Texting in between. I think this is one rare occasion where I did build perceived value by texting about myself over the break. Date came. It was great! Deep, deep rapport… but I didn’t break it much. It was warm and fuzzy. She said she could not go back with me on the first date, I didn’t care. We were in our own little world. 4 hours later and I’m ravishing her on the sidewalk before sending her home. She went through a breakup with her other partner. And she said there was just something telling her it was no, but she really respected me. At the time, she did have a higher perceived sexual experience in BDSM which is what I think was what tipped it to no. I think the margins and gap were so small here. I didn’t tank my perceived value, but all the rapport did not build it either. One of the few maybe girls I have dealt with.

OF Girl: This girl has a high self perceived value, inflated by her success with OF. However the frame in which we met put me higher initially. I was an outsider of the BDSM scene, but came to that munch with confidence, and observed top guy behavior: sitting on top of the table, taking up space, conversing with people and ignoring her and her friends. Her friends wanted to meet me (because they found me attractive) so her and her friends approached me. We got familiar. Over the next couple encounters I did not chase and she ended up DMing me on FetLife and I got the number. Tried setting a date, but we were both without vehicles at the time and she lives on the outskirts of town. Then I chased, trying to set more dates when the first didn’t work. I knew if I could get her on a date, one on one, I was fucking closing. So I pushed. Then I started closing the gap by getting to know her over text. The gap got to widen a couple more times from preselection of Spiritual Girl and Psychadelic Girl. But the same story played out of trying to set a date and chasing. Gap closed. Square in the friend zone.

Boudoir Girl: Christ this girl was hot (pedestalizing). We had a great date. I ran it well. We kissed at the end and both of us were turned on. I got a chub in the parking lot. Probably should have left the tension there, and intensified it by going in for the kiss and whispering in her ear instead. Only reason I did not get the pull that day was her schedule. She had to get home. Where I messed up was chasing… chasing is death. She was a busy professional woman and already had a partner so schedule was slim. She was also going on a trip. Tried before the trip. Tried after the trip. But always chasing to see what her schedule was.

After review here is where I am doing well:

• Solid reaping of sowing many years of self development
• Exhibiting top guy behavior, even before I really had all of it
• Minimal bottom guy behavior - I’ve done a lot of inner game work so that MY OWN self perceived value matches what I am experiencing. Bottom guys don’t do what I can do, so don’t act like one.
• Teasing
• Selective use of compliments
• Status, preselection
• Creating safety
• I’m doing decent at DHV, but still need to stay diligent about it as my lifestyle keeps shifting. Living in a van is low value. Having autonomy to adventure and travel wherever, whenever in a home I designed and built myself is high value.

After review here is where I am cutting my own throat in game:

• Chasing… Chasing is death: it’s a behavior that needs to be ripped out from the core mainframe, burned, put in a little box, and burned again. Why do I do it? 1) Sometimes the girl is hot (pedestalizing) and I really want her to stick around/ go on the date (needy). 2) I get in shitty scheduling situations where I keep having to re-engage her to try to set the date and I feel like I have to persist or it will not happen. Particularly AFTER the lay, if I try to set the day once, and she is busy, what do I say the second time so I am not sounding needy and chasing? This has killed too many retention opportunities.
• Closing the gap: Sometimes I’m getting the lay in spite of doing this. I probably don’t need to give her as much comfort as I sometimes do. Sometimes it’s necessary, but not as often as I think. Just like compliments, which I see as a good thing if they are genuine and not done to pedestalize, empathy needs to be selective, especially if I already have the higher perceived value.
• Breaking rapport more often: I’m a pretty friendly person. I’ve spent a lifetime of learning the skills to make sure I’m not an outsider while still maintaining autonomy. Its a balancing act. What I could do is actively break rapport more often. I think I have plenty of room to do so.
• Avoiding the category of tools associated with decreasing her self perceived value: Look, I don’t like making people feel worse about themselves. I’d rather empower them. Teases I don’t mind so much. They are witty and come with humor. It stings a little, but it’s all in good fun. I have done active degradation exactly one time. It was on OF Girl and she was being really bratty. I isolated a psychological pain point that I knew would make her really self conscious and I exploited it. I did not like doing it and immediately stopped. But she also stopped her behavior. It feels like a double edged sword where the wielder also loses part of their life force when using it. If there are other tools in this category I can use, and it won’t make her or myself feel like shit, I am open to hearing them.
• Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.
• Active frame control and polarization of LTR’s: Must keep them out of the friend zone. My next steps for this are higher utilization of dirty talk and dominance. I do just fine at empathy and bringing us closer together.

Very open to hearing other's observations of my behavior that I am either doing well, and need to continue, or not doing well, and I need to improve.

In the words of Socrates, "Fucking christ, still a rookie."

 

[Zug]

For those that follow anything I post here, you know I've talked a lot about empathy. If empathy closes the gap on perceived value, and will actively hurt me if I am perceived higher, why am I using it?

I love theory, and I don't care if other's feel its useless, it hasn't been for me.

I'm not convinced on the thread you have with empathy == sameness == closing value gaps == lowering your value.

You might need to define empathy better for us to debate this. If empathy is understanding her blueprint, what she is feeling and thinking, and the ability to perceive and feel it indirectly, then no, categorically. If empathy is the thing where a girl tells a story and you try to match her story with a similar one, then yes, absolutely. That is actually a horrible conversational approach and its not good in almost any circumstance other than when you're perceived as too foreign and strange.

Shared experiences and opinions are obviously a plus, especially political/religious/moral values/opinions. Stupid, but true nonetheless. You're best off acknowledging when you agree, ignoring and directing conversation elsewhere if its a realm of disagreement and important. If its trivial, let her say her piece, then actively disagree with her and say so. This is the ultimate rapport break and can be very attractive if done with zero superiority complex or judgement.

Note on D/s: Dominance works both axes at the same time. It creates polarity and a man to woman frame. It also actively raises her perceived value of you by the nature of the activities you are doing. Her kneeling beneath you, for example. Submissive will work the axes in the reverse. If we look at marriage, you are submitting to her frame to some degree.

I agree with the first 3 sentences. I've tried making girls kneel for the sake of kneeling in D/s play, meaning not to blow me, just as an act of submission. Honestly, I only tried it twice and I found it offputting for both of us. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I feel like its not a great move because its so so so over the top and strange/foreign/weird. I discarded it as a tool.

Useful and effective D/s is stuff thats rewarding to both. When D/s is done well, the girl feels like she is "winning" or earning you and that feels good for her because its her seducing a man of value.

Culturally, I'd say that marriage does lean towards constraining men, but I'm not going to agree its a submissive act. Its a weirdly taboo topic, but the #1 strategy to get ahead in the West as a man is to be married. Married men make more money, most executive level positions would bend over backward to not hire a single man. Marriage is an institution that constrains both men and women, but its for the betterment of all when it works. Married people are healthier, happier, and more successful on virtually every axis of measurement that exists. The numbers are just overwhelming and arguing against them seems impossible.

Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.

I just learned this from a random YT video, but the rapport break compliment has been super effective for me. Interrupt a girl (rudely) in the middle of her story or whatever topic she is talking about to give her a compliment. I think you should compliment whatever it is you actually do like about them the most, but skip anything that's physical. People want to be complimented for effort, not intelligence, not beauty, and not even skills. Hot people know they're hot, same with smart people, same with anyone good enough at something for you to be impressed. After effort, the next best thing imo are virtues/character strengths/decision making.

If there are other tools in this category I can use, and it won’t make her or myself feel like shit, I am open to hearing them.

Actually, they do exist. Only one I've found that I've personally used is making a girl change her outfit. When she is getting dressed/ready for you to go out. If you don't like it, tell her you don't like it and to change. Its insanely dominant and demanding, but there isn't much of an insult there. It will cause some drama, but the ideal amount of drama in a relationship isn't zero. If you're relationship is at absolute zero drama, it is usually worth creating a little.

The more refined/useful version of this one is immediate callouts of every single thing a girl does repeatedly that you hate. This needs some tact and wisdom, but anytime a girl does something that turns you off, for any reason. The first time you should write it down and figure out what about it you hate or annoyed by, then the next time she does it, immediately tell her you don't like it when she does it, why you don't like, and that you're only telling her because you want things between you to work out long term and you know this will become a problem. This is maybe the best advice I've found anywhere. If you call things out early they can get fixed early. If you let a girl smoke in your house 5 times, good fucking luck telling her she is no longer allowed to the 6th time she does. You can call thing out the first time if you know your position and what you're going to say, but in my experience, a lot of these situations are goofy and you don't realize you hate it until later. Examples: a girl makes jokes during sex to relieve her anxiety, a girl hits her vape/weed pen during sex, girl uses the bathroom with a door open, girl corrects you in front of others, girl leaves her shit everywhere, etc, etc.

Chasing… Chasing is death:

Yeah, I agree. I used to think persistence paid off in terms of pinging girls and the like. IMO, it doesn't. An occasional dead ping after a while is fine, but whenever a girl is being distant just move on. Chasing a girl is acting out and internalizing the belief that girls are better than you. People with real abundance just move on. I've seen a few examples of chasing working out, but I've also seen multiple examples of dudes that just move on and the girl getting confused and chasing them later. When I was seeing a girl casually she told me she was busy for NYE, so I said cool, we'll do something next week then. I booked a date with a different girl, and then original girl hit me up day before NYE asking if I was free, told her I wasn't, but would love to do something next week still. What's she going to make of that? That I'm not desperate? That her being busy isn't a big deal to me? That its in her best interest to be more compliant if she wants to get taken out? These are all things that raise your value, and it gives her a feeling of FOMO.

 

[Holden]

Chasing… Chasing is death: it’s a behavior that needs to be ripped out from the core mainframe, burned, put in a little box, and burned again. Why do I do it? 1) Sometimes the girl is hot (pedestalizing) and I really want her to stick around/ go on the date (needy). 2) I get in shitty scheduling situations where I keep having to re-engage her to try to set the date and I feel like I have to persist or it will not happen. Particularly AFTER the lay, if I try to set the day once, and she is busy, what do I say the second time so I am not sounding needy and chasing? This has killed too many retention opportunities.

I'm struggling with this because this is obviously true but it's also a fact that in 2024 girls get bombarded with messages and they will literally forget you exist if you don't ping them.

The choice in 2024 is between chasing a bit and looking needy, and not getting any action at all. Same with old out-dated "never ever double text" rules and the like. Things changed. Wait 24 hours and an average hot girl has gotten so many new messages that you're not on top of her inbox-list, meaning she has to scroll down to see your name/convo thread, meaning you are literally dead to her at this point because IG/TikTok/Snap fried her short term memory.

People say "just move on to the next one" as if the next one isn't also like this, and before you know it you've "moved on" from 50 girls with nothing to show for it.

Girls are also incapable of planning things themselves while simultaneously being extremely busy because they get 10 offers per night. Try texting a new girl "tell me when you're free" and watch how the convo dies a slow death. Text her "I'm free Wed and Thurs" and watch how she says she has plans and now you're looking needy saying shit like "uhhh okay Friday then?" Because next week might as well not exist in girl-time, you're dead already.

You need to be either significantly more high value than her (meaning she's not the type of girl we do this shit for anyway) or you need to be lucky and catch her at the one time she's actually available when you're texting her, aka luck.

The *only* remedy to this, that I've found, is "hacking" your value in some way. For me that's IG Stories of me being out with other girls. They watch these stories and suddenly oh they're free and they can send a text back and they're also more fun to text with. Funny how that works.

I don't think there is a consistent solution for this because we're dealing with something inherently paradoxical: you need to chase because the nature of the apps and online dating forces you to, yet it's also an unattractive behavior. There is no escape from these two contradictory yet true statements.

Closing the gap: Sometimes I’m getting the lay in spite of doing this. I probably don’t need to give her as much comfort as I sometimes do. Sometimes it’s necessary, but not as often as I think. Just like compliments, which I see as a good thing if they are genuine and not done to pedestalize, empathy needs to be selective, especially if I already have the higher perceived value.

People on this forum put waaaay too much emphasis on comfort as if girls don't regularly get fucked in public toilets. I have the following Chris GLL adagium fried into my brain: "if you fucked her in 4 hours, you could've fucked her in 2. If you could've fucked her in 2, you could've done it in one" etc.

Girls only say "you're moving too fast" if they've already put you in the "he might be a good boyfriend so I'll make him wait" box. This used to happen to me when I talked to girls about my previous high status job. When I didn't mention my line of work, that objection disappeared. It's not a n=1 thing either, I've tested it deliberately and always with the same result.

Too much comfort also signals a lack of abundance. "Why does this guy give a shit about me, he barely knows me."

Interested in learning how I may be able to deliver a compliment that can also raise my perceived value when I deliver it. I’ve found complimenting the eyes, while also holding deep eye contact, works really well. It draws attention to my eyes and I usually get a compliment back.

Unless it's to break the ice in the opening, I never compliment girls. At least not for the sake of it. I do it to show her I like a certain behavior and the implication is I want to see more of that behavior. Which also means I stick by the old school rule of never complimenting her genetics (eyes) but only her choices (dress, behavior.)

"I like those heels, you're getting bonus points by wearing those"

"You have a real talent for this" while she's massaging me post-sex and I'll exaggerate a bit in my "oooh that feels good"

On a first date after some seamless texting and planning, "I really liked texting with you, I like the enthusiasm you see in your replies"

 

[Zug]

Girls only say "you're moving too fast" if they've already put you in the "he might be a good boyfriend so I'll make him wait" box.

Is this really a thing? I hear about it all the time, but it never once happened to me (for this reason), and its obvious I have money. I haven't dated that many 30yo+, maybe it shows up then. Also, I feel like a significant amount of "youre moving too fast" isn't actually lack of comfort, but lack of attraction and/or escalating in an obnoxious way.

As an aside, anytime a girl uses the "im going to make you X" or "you need to earn it first" type language I want to vomit and take a time machine back to before I swiped right.

 

[kratjeuh]

september made an excellent post in his log how empathy is the most important trait to have especially when you’re dating girls of status. I’ve added the original writers post below.

If you can’t understand the consequences of certain decisions towards the social status of a girl, you’re limiting yourself to dating lower status girls who are not always, but typically less attractive than high status girls because of braces, cosmetics, …

Imagine if a girl of wealth an status goes on a date with you to an ugly cheap bar and gets spotted there. When her friends confront her, she basically has no way other than saying it was a fuckdate with a random guy. That’s an immediate loss in her social power.

Now let’s say you take her to a nice bar and she gets spotted. Her friends ask her and she can say: “Oh yeah this guy was very eager to treat me for free cocktails because he found me so pretty and it’s such a nice place for IG so I just went for free”. This adds to her social value and she won’t have to mention her friends she took your dick all night.

The same principle applies in the club. A girl of status will not fuck you in the public toilets lol. If they get caught she is now automatically the group slut for her entire life.
Remember: girls like to act slutty to get attention and free drinks (status boost) but they don’t want to be called the slut.

That doesn’t mean you can’t get her, you’ll just have to seduce her, win over her friends and take her home with you. Your way of winning is to take her home so she can tell her friends she was just soooo drunk and this humble cool guy was sweet enough to make sure she was safe.

If you only filter for almost obvious fuckdates, there’s no reason to ever learn how to be empathic, hell you don’t even have to learn how to build comfort at all. You’ll just have to accept you lose out on a very big pool of women.

For higher value girls and especially dating without using dating apps, your success is very much related whether you can understand her view and create your own little bubble applying your and her view into one.

 

[Holden]

Is this really a thing?

Eh, I'd say it's your age, at which wealth/status is implied. Plus you filter for girls who want to fulfil their "sexy older man" fantasy. When they're dating their own age in the early 20s, they date either poor students or recent graduates with an entry level boring job. My job by contrast implied status, recognition from peers, regularly meeting important people, etc. Quite a step up from what she's used to, status-wise. Hence, "oh shit I need to actually keep this guy around [and not act like a slut]." I never had this problem when I was a poor student myself, and I haven't had the problem since I stopped talking about what I do. It's not a coincidence.

kratjeuh You should try asking every girl that you've had quick sex with, after establishing you're a non-judgmental player type, what their "craziest sex story" is. I think you'll be surprised at the answers.

Yes, no girl wants to appear as a slut, but don't underestimate the amount of emotional and psychological (not to mention practical) resources she has to hide that fact. Obviously not every girl has a toilet-in-the-club story. But ask them, tell them a story of your own, invent one if necessary... Show that you're "in the world" of these guys and you'll quickly see she's in that world as well.

And if not, every girl has the "sexy stranger fucks me within 2 minutes" fantasy anyway. So even if she has practical objections she has no psychological ones. Just waiting for the right guy who can engineer such a scenario.

Most girls have one BFF that they share everything with and they hide the rest from the others in the group anyway, btw. You're never going to know this stuff unless you can present yourself as part of the in-group first.

For example if I asked them while they knew about my job as in my reply to Zug above, they wouldn't tell me anything spicy. But if they saw me as a quick sex fuckboy who just told them a story of his own about meeting a girl in a park and feeling a connection and doing it in the bushes right there, then she'll tell me the true juicy story she has. The typical nice guy will never know about it.

Many times in my log I talk about girls who "used me" for a quick fuck because they are dating a guy and it's about to get serious and they want one last fuck with someone else before they become monogamous. I tell them "it's pretty exciting that he will never know about me" and they say "yeah." They don't plan on telling their future boyfriend about the quick 5 minute sex with me from Tinder. It's just the reality of things. They're not "low class", they're intelligent students doing master's degrees.

This classic 20-year old post has always served me well, not for its literal message, but to internalize the mindset behind it: https://bristollair.com/secret-society/

 

[Bman]

Really appreciate the advice and comments, boys.

You might need to define empathy better for us to debate this. If empathy is understanding her blueprint, what she is feeling and thinking, and the ability to perceive and feel it indirectly, then no, categorically. If empathy is the thing where a girl tells a story and you try to match her story with a similar one, then yes, absolutely.

Empathy is the first. The latter is just surface level mirroring and you're right, its a poor strategy. To be clear, I'm not saying empathy is a bad thing. Obviously I use empathy a lot. It builds deep rapport. All good for a healthy relationship.

Also agree with the perspective raised by your comment kratjeuh.

However, we are talking about seduction here. I think if used too much, it's anti seductive for the reason presented behind Holden's comment:

"Why does this guy give a shit about me, he barely knows me."

Call me a humanist or whatever, but I genuinely care about people. I think it makes me a strong leader. It makes me friendly, approachable, and able to build deep relationships.

But it seems that the most seductive guys just don't give a shit. They act out of their selfish desires, be damned what the consequences of his actions on her. Open to being wrong about this though. I want to be wrong about it. I wantto believe it can be done differently, and I guess that my log is trying to be a testament to that. But what I want and what the reality is may be different.

It's actually a paradox I confront in the bedroom, too. I'm never able to just use her. Most of the time I'm trying to figure out how I can maximize the pleasure of any given act for the both of us. I rarely ever do anything strictly for my pleasure.

Useful and effective D/s is stuff thats rewarding to both. When D/s is done well, the girl feels like she is "winning" or earning you and that feels good for her because its her seducing a man of value.

Yes, agreed.

Culturally, I'd say that marriage does lean towards constraining men, but I'm not going to agree its a submissive act. Its a weirdly taboo topic, but the #1 strategy to get ahead in the West as a man is to be married. Married men make more money, most executive level positions would bend over backward to not hire a single man. Marriage is an institution that constrains both men and women, but its for the betterment of all when it works. Married people are healthier, happier, and more successful on virtually every axis of measurement that exists. The numbers are just overwhelming and arguing against them seems impossible.

Agreed, when it works. Which, if the divorce rate has anything to show, is not often.

I'm also all for marriage, if that is truly what you want. It's hard to separate my views from what's most optimal for the majority of people in society from what's the most optimal for myself. I can without a ounce of doubt say that I am happier, healthier, and making more progress on my own then when I was married. To be clear, I loved my exwife and the marriage was great in a lot of aspects. I believe it ended for two reasons 1) we had different values that we were not aware of because we married young (one of those being my nonmonogamy), 2) I failed to keep polarity alive.

Interrupt a girl (rudely) in the middle of her story or whatever topic she is talking about to give her a compliment...After effort, the next best thing imo are virtues/character strengths/decision making

Gold. Thank you for this. Will use.

The more refined/useful version of this one is immediate callouts of every single thing a girl does repeatedly that you hate.

Yes, as evidence of this week, I'm actively working on this, trying to callout one the first time it occurs. I used to be bad at this and if you let things go one that you hate, you build resentment towards her.

@Zug & @Holden on chasing:

I think I have had it work out maybe once or twice. But the vast majority of the time it doesn't. Every time I think I have to do it, I stare at the same paradox Holden described.

Maybe there is a way to callout the meta-frame?

So we ask once or twice, and if they are not actively giving alternative days to your offer.

Ones before the lay: "Hey I think we'd vibe and I'd like to go on a date to find that out, but I'm not going to chase you. Send me your schedule of days you are free and we can set a date."

After the lay: "Hey I enjoyed our time together and I'd like to see you again, but I'm not going to chase you. Send me your schedule of days you are free and we can set a date"

you're moving too fast

To be honest, I have never been told this by a girl. So maybe I'm not pushing the edge enough and could do it faster. Which I mean, seems a little fast for my own comfort because I've done 15 minutes and most of the time I'm 30-45 minutes. What your probably telling me is a lot of these girls I probably could have done straight to my place, if I could be comfortable enough doing so.

Unless it's to break the ice in the opening, I never compliment girls. At least not for the sake of it. I do it to show her I like a certain behavior and the implication is I want to see more of that behavior. Which also means I stick by the old school rule of never complimenting her genetics (eyes) but only her choices (dress, behavior.)

Ok, similar to what Zug was saying, using them as reward for behaviors that you want more of.

In practice, I always express gratitude for behaviors I want them to continue like the way they texted me, expressing themselves, or wearing something they know I like or I told them to wear. What you're say is I could more do this more powerfully by using a compliment as a reward.

Gold. Thank you for this. Particularly like the texting example to train them how best to speak with me.

But ask them, tell them a story of your own, invent one if necessary... Show that you're "in the world" of these guys and you'll quickly see she's in that world as well.

Sharing sex stories or kinky sex stuff is always a part of my date game. I've found the best way to get them to open up about their wild or kinky adventures is to first share yours. And no, not just the FetLife/ Feeld girls who may be more comfortable doing so. I mean all of them. Can confirm that almost all of them either have a wild story or they have a fantasy to do so.

 

[Bman]

Shared experiences and opinions are obviously a plus, especially political/religious/moral values/opinions. Stupid, but true nonetheless. You're best off acknowledging when you agree, ignoring and directing conversation elsewhere if its a realm of disagreement and important. If its trivial, let her say her piece, then actively disagree with her and say so. This is the ultimate rapport break and can be very attractive if done with zero superiority complex or judgement.

Ok, thought about this one more. Breaking rapport I think is the larger theme I need to work on.

I can I show her I understand her perspective, not just logically but emotionally (which is when people really felt "seen"), then breaking rapport by emphasizing that although I see her perspective, here's how I think and feel. The ultimate of this for seduction would be points of contrast that are inherent between a man's experience and woman's experience, showing that I understand the game and I am comfortable being the man in that game.

I'm much better than I used to be, but I have been adverse in the past to tension, especially conflict or drama. Now I understand tension is good and don't try to avoid it. But I can see I still have room for improvement with breaking rapport.

Thanks Zug.

 

[Holden]

I had a date right this moment where I talked about my experience being a bull in cuckold situations and the girl immediately went from good-girl-student-from-a-muslim-country to admitting all kinds of "adventures" she had while abroad. Things you wouldn't expect from a 22 year old who lives on Instagram and who presents herself as a professional-to-be wholesome "wealth" girl.

They know how to hide this side of their existence really well. I didn't fuck her because I got too greedy (more info on my log write-up later) but I could've if I had more time (had another date in line) and then no one would have ever known I existed, a foreign traveller that she met up with in the middle of the day, between IG stories of her having breakfast at some bougie place and visiting a flea market later... Who would know? No one.

I don't think you can all out "the meta frame" like that, it sounds try-hard. "I won't chase you" is not something a genuinely high value guy would say, he wouldn't waste words on that.

I have converted girls to my side, who said they "maybe" wanted to meet, by telling them "I don't date maybe girls." Something like that might work. But honestly if a girl is being a bitch about scheduling, 90% of the time you can forget it. There's no gracious way to get her to meet you if she can't even tell you when she's free.

 

[kratjeuh]

Empathy can be used as selfishly as you wish. Dante is a perfect example: He identifies what sort of girl is in front of him, understands the underlying values and culture behind her and then projects himself as the ideal candidate for that specific scenario albeit by lying.

In regards to girls having done incredible dirty things that she tells no one about, that’s true, I’ve been told ridiculous things by girls before. However for 99% of cases it happens on holiday or sororities, basically situations where girls will create a bubble of everything is allowed now. Especially solo traveling girls: I fucked a girl 2h after meeting in the bathroom of a hostel with cameras. Now take a guess if she would do the same thing in a bar 10min away from her home.

Regardless of that it’s better to assume the girl is sexually open but not to the extends of sucking dick for a cigarette. A girl who’d fuck a dude in the toilets would still fuck you in your bed but not the other way around.

If I were you I’d keep your natural ability to create comfort and empathy and steer it towards the direction you’re willing to head but don’t just get rid of it. There’s tremendous value to be find in portraying yourself as the ideal (short term) mate.

 

[Bman]

If I were you I’d keep your natural ability to create comfort and empathy and steer it towards the direction you’re willing to head but don’t just get rid of it. There’s tremendous value to be find in portraying yourself as the ideal (short term) mate.

No plans on getting rid of it. Just finding the ratio that is optimal for me.

Shrine is tonight, munch tomorrow, a couple networking events this week, and Buddhist Girl scheduled for Thursday. So I'll try to implement some of the advice you all shared.

 

[Zug]

I don't think you can all out "the meta frame" like that, it sounds try-hard. "I won't chase you" is not something a genuinely high value guy would say, he wouldn't waste words on that.

Agreed, saying "I won't chase", 100% doesn't work. I think there actually is some way to accomplish this using either FOMO via time constraints (I'm leaving town X days") or some creative method of implying not chasing indirectly.

I still think its just not worth the effort. All the energy I spent in trying to coax hesitant girls was really a waste of time. The only thing I learned of value from it was some interesting elements of human psychology I can apply elsewhere. Over the course of years, I may have gotten 1 or maybe 2 lays out of follow up ping strategies.

The problem with playing from behind isn't that its hard, its that it trains you to become worse. Sometimes that can be useful as a rite of passage for a rank beginner, but I think the energy needs to be mentally spent on becoming better. The real way to communicate you don't chase is established from the moment she met you IRL or saw your profile, all the way through the end of the last date. That's how it gets communicated. You don't communicate you're a bodybuilder by telling people you are, you communicate it to laymen through your large arms and food choices.

So how do you communicate you don't chase? By becoming someone who really does not chase things. Someone who is perfectly willing to let that 10 go because she is annoying, a pain, too unavailable, etc. Someone who isn't just willing to let her go, but literally doesn't waste much thought on it and gets on to their next task. That's not "an abundance" mindset, its just a combination of stoicism + self respect + implementing best practices + aiming up.

 

[Bman]

Shrine is tonight, munch tomorrow, a couple networking events this week, and Buddhist Girl scheduled for Thursday. So I'll try to implement some of the advice you all shared.

Checking in on this stuff.

Shrine was uneventful only because I was tired and dipped early.

Monday's munch was pretty good. A girl that had previously come showed up again. She sat next to me at the end of the table, even though there was not much room to sit there so she schooced in close. Something I noticed when running the munch is that I break rapport by default in this situation. When she sat next to me I started having a conversation between just us two separate from the group. We were laughing and playfully teasing each other, and then I pulled all attention away from her mid conversation so I could tend to managing the larger conversation. Occasionally I would look back over to her, maybe say something, and pull away attention.

She has a latina with a real cute face, but is a little thicker than I would go for. But I also noticed that had I not already seen her naked on FL and know what she looks like, I probably would have been MORE interested by the tension we were building had we only just met there. I could feel mutual attraction. But shed probably be a girl I'd say maybe to or swipe away on an app. Found that interesting.

Just had Buddhist Girl over. We were supposed to do a shoot today, but she had some bruises on her ass from Shrine on Sunday and they would have been difficult to photoshop out. So we went for a walk instead because it was gorgeous outside and I wanted to be out there. I forgot how quiet she is but we were laughing and reconnecting well. She was seeing a friend afterwards, so I we kissed at the end, which I didn't even really mean to do, but it was just habit of sliding my hand on girls lower back and pulling them in. But we're rescheduling for next week.

AND finally heard from Nurse Girl. I was right to think something happened... she attempted suicide by intentional overdose. I seen her have some activity on Fet after a week, which she is normally on there everyday, so I texted her to ask if she was ok and find out why she no showed last week. She was giving very short answers but I got that out of her. Now I don't know why, and text is not the right setting to unpack that. She also has a husband and a few kids, basically a family there to support her. I'm not here to be a white knight. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't think it's my place, nor do I have enough history to know her and actually make a difference. Unlike both my parents and friend growing up that I have been there to help through suicidal times. And even if I did, I'll be leaving in a month and that is just not fair to her. My best guess though is that she has some demons (we all do) and her constantly working night shifts and poor sleep is making them exponentially worse. I told her "Thank you for telling me. I'm glad to hear from you and you're ok. Please be kind to yourself." Nothing back after that.

I'm very hesitant of pursuing to see her again. I'd hate to keep building a connection, then leaving, and then her having whatever negative emotions associated with that. Also, we could have sex, but I would not want to do any heavier BDSM things with her because I would not trust her mental state. Real bummer. She's such a sweetheart. But sometimes the sweetest people hurt the most.

 

[Wnyhg]

This is what sucks about medicine nowadays. I did night call and I was admitting 16 people a night. It’s brutal. Add to that kids, open relationships, and the encompassing responsibilities. Not everyone is built for it and I must admit you’ve done the right thing. It kind of sucks all around. If this were me I would want a person to talk to. If you could leave the communication channel open, somehow that would be helpful. I’m probably overstepping my bounds but this hits really hard. Why? Because the likelihood she’s going to do it again is about 40% if not higher.

Half my crew is dead. One day he’s playing basketball and shredding Metallica on his guitar, the “next day” he’s dead. If any of you think I’m full of shit , his name was Irfan Kathwari. He was at Harvard medical school when he upped and did the most unbelievable thing I will ever hear. After decades of pain, I know now by he did what he did. I don’t agree with it though. The other just burned himself in his parents garage somehow sitting in his car. Almost burned the house down.

This really hit hard. I’ve been there, I had to leave and I’m still not fixed. I lost a good woman, security but at least I have my life.

There’s a fulfilling aspect of pickup short of marriage and monogamy; this might be it. But yeah, there you go.

I’ve got a bleeding heart. Don’t worry about the negative emotions, absolutely anything will be a respite from the chaos inside.

 

[Bman]

Wnyhg - thanks for sharing your experience, man. I know it's not easy seeing friends go like that.

I, of course, left communication open. I've said before, but she shows a lot of respect to me. So she was afraid to tell me. I'll share the text I sent today, in case anyone else needs to hear this today, too.


View attachment 1


I have a date set today with a 20yo redhead and she sent me this on the check-in.





Wildly different problems.

This is a practical example why you need stoicism in this game. Girls are going to come at you with a dozen different emotions. If you can't even handle your own, good luck handling theirs.

 

[Bman]

I, however, will not be running one of these. But I wrote that out to show you how to engineer serendipity. That's the name of the game with these social groups.

Ok, I lied. I will be starting other groups. Here's why.

I had a different meetup scheduled yesterday. A general make friends/ network group. It was scheduled to be in the big park here in the city, on a Saturday, with lots of sunshine and 50+ people RSVP'd with some cute girls on the list. Awesome.

But on the event details they did not put WHERE in the park to meet. And its a HUGE park. So what happened? People started commenting on there asking where. The hosts never answered... Some people tried to do a pseudo meetup wrangling all the commenters together, but its like a bunch of Indians and no chief. Seriously, it's not that hard to put a simple line of meet here, look for this person.

So far the only well run meetups I have been to were run by a volunteer organizer and founder for a community app. No surprise. Both of those people manage people all the time.

I've realized I don't want to leave my social dating life up to the incompetence and shortcomings of others. So while I will have to take more responsibility, set aside time, and the such, I also get all the rewards for doing so. Especially in dating.

In fact, I matched with a seemingly innocent girl on Bumble yesterday and she opened me that she already knew of me and has been meaning to come out to my munch but hasn't made it yet. Exactly what I want. Putting in work to build status, then status puts in work for me.

What I have to be careful of is overwhelming my schedule or the lift required to run these groups. So roughly, I'm going to try this:

• I'm going to stay in my circle of competence and places I can meet attractive women and demonstrate status.
• The cadence of meeting needs to be enough that you can build relationships quickly and deeply, but not so often it becomes a chore to host or attend.
• Times and days for the meetups need to allow enough room in my schedule to go on dates and do other things.
• I need to be able to easily manage admin of the groups.
• They need to be framed in a way that its normal for me to be doing them in different cities every few months, since I'll be moving. Semi-local, semi-national meetups.

My initial thoughts are I can do 3 groups, maybe not all in the beginning, but as I get comfortable running one, I can start the next. So the BDSM group, a model and photographer meetup, and non-profit leader/volunteer/philanthropy meetup.

Given the nature of the groups, the BDSM group is best run on an weekday evening, the photography meetup during golden hour on the weekend, and the networking one could be a coffee/daytime one during the week or weekend. It may be overwhelming to run all three every week. But doing them biweekly may give enough cadence to build connections quickly. Then I can stagger groups so I have at least one-two meetups a week and leave enough time open for dates and the rest of my life.

What is of benefit to me is that I have already been running a group for over a year. While the content of the group is niche to the sexual arena, the skills required to run the group are generalizable. If I make standard operating procedures that I can copy to the other groups, the lift of running the second and third group are much smaller. I'm well aware of what it takes to run these groups effectively, and it's less then people think. What's important are setting up the right frame/context, handling logistics, and then being hospitable and facilitating the conversation and people during the actual meetup.

I think its worth trying. Worse case scenario is a group bombs, I move away from that city in a couple months, then retry again in the new city. Semi-rapid iteration. I may also find out doing one of the groups is too much, in which case I just don't do that group anymore when I go to the new city.

I leave Austin in a month, so not really great for starting another group up here. What I can do though is get my Meetup.com organizer profile setup and develop the frames of these groups for the next city: Denver.

 

[Bman]

#36 - Bumble Girl

In fact, I matched with a seemingly innocent girl on Bumble yesterday and she opened me that she already knew of me and has been meaning to come out to my munch but hasn't made it yet. Exactly what I want. Putting in work to build status, then status puts in work for me.

Was this girl. So social circle, app, status lay? Who cares. First lay from Bumble though. No surprise though because it's the first time I actually paid for a subscription for a month to try it out.

After she opened me I sent over a voice note teasing her and then telling her to tell me about what she was into or looking for. She really loved the voice message. Thanks for inspo on doing this, Holden. Felt pretty confident about the lay happening from just texting, but I've been sure in the past and thrown a wild card.

She was a reverse catfish and actually hotter in person than her pictures had led on. She dressed quite modest in her photos and her main photo was a pure head only headshot which did not really do her justice to the structure of her face. In person she was like one whole point more attractive than her photos. And a short fit/petite frame. My favorite. She also has a larger tattoo that starts on her shoulder, goes down her back, and on her ass and thigh. Those kinds of tattoos are so hot to me.

She's semi-nomadic, enjoys being part of the burning man scene (burners as they are called), a software engineer but also had a bit of value girl flair to her, was previously engaged in a monogamous relationship and then decided she really like non-monogamy more.

Its been a minute since doing a first date, so I was not as smooth as normal, not that it really mattered. I've also been reading Game Solved so I was actively trying to implement some of what I had started learning, which just like breathing, if you consciously think about something that you have been doing subconsciously, than it's a little less smooth. In the book he talks about being an emotional communicator rather than a content communicator, which practically looks like more descriptive language, exaggerating the length of your words, varying inflection a lot more, speaking with more intensity, and overall trying to infuse more emotion into your words. You can also do this in texting by the way you write your words. So for example: TYPING LIKE THIS MAKES WHAT YOU SAY MORE EXTREME or exaggerating your words because something is soooooo goooood. I did a bit of this in texting and on the date. I didn't turn into an entertaining clown, but I think it did help create some contrast to the mysterious, cool handed or friendly, warm hearted vibe I can often give out during a date.

Otherwise, it was the foundational:

• sat next to each other
• lots of eye contact which made her uncomfortable, giggle and tell me she's not good at it
• at one point had a very long, almost uncomfortable for me, silence but I just pushed it as far as I could before we were both kinda squirming from it
• A lot of talk about travel, past relationships, the apps, getting into BDSM, sex and kinks. We actually didn't at first pass line up in a lot of kinks, but I mentioned rough sex and being more primal and she gave this innocent, sheepish smile and said "yeah... I really like that too". Of course you do, honey. She's just starting to dip her toe into the water of kink. She told me she likes being submissive because she can give up control, not have to think about the other person or be worried or anxious... and then I interrupted her and said so she could turn her brain off, which she adamantly agreed. Pretty universal desire for girls.
• Brushed my hand a lot along her arm.
• Think I had a good balance of teasing and breaking rapport. Didn't feel over the top to me, nor was I actively building comfort with her. She did not seem like a comfort girl anyways.

After the pull and back at my apartment I had everything setup to do a shoot tomorrow with Buddhist Girl, so I mentioned to her I also do boudoir photography which she seemed excited about.

Sex was really good. There is no denying that there is a difference between sex with a cute girl and sex with a hot girl. I was just way more into her which helped my performance a lot.

I also actively did a few things that made it better for me:

• I slowed down each stage of the bedroom escalation by a click or two more than usual. Tried to really savor and get satisfaction from each part before moving to the next.
• As I did that I did a lot more teasing, ramping up and coming back down. Like two steps forward, one step back. I wanted her to be really eager and physically begging me to get to the next stage.
• I ate her out, which I kind of stopped doing with my past lays. However, I actually really enjoy it, especially if I'm really into the girl. And I'll be honest, it is a psychological crutch to help me relax. I'm very good at it, not by my own judgement, but by how many times I've been told so. So I know there is a very high probability of her orgasming from it. It also teaches me her orgasm response so I know what I'm looking for later during penetration. This both helps me turn my worrying brain off and I get really turned on watching her and hearing her. And no surprise, after I give her an orgasm from that she told I was really fucking good at that.
• I picked her up, manhandled her, and moved her in whatever way I needed her. And that was for everything from getting spanked, head, fucking her, and so on. Normally I command and tell her, but yesterday I just did it. In my head I was just like "trust me, you need to be in this position, its going to feel way better for us." And she actively followed suit, no resistance, she just completely trusted I knew what I was doing.
• The best part was for one of the very few times on a first date, I was able to turn my brain off and not worry. I was aware of her and her pleasure, but I wasn't worried about the interaction per se. I was not worried about pleasing, or retention, or whatever. I did have a little anxiety come up about getting hard/staying hard but that quickly faded after watching her get so turned on and lustful. This is the state I like to be in because I get much more animalistic. And boy, did we fuck like animals. She got exactly what she wanted. We both did.

Afterwards, she said "I just want you to know, that I almost never orgasm the first time for a new partner". She did for me three times, maybe a fourth. Whether it's true or not, who knows. I'm a simple man. I like the validation. She could barley stand afterwards and we laughed by how much I had smeared her massacre everywhere. She also told me no marks, but I accidently left a hickie on her neck from when I was biting her from behind. I kind of turned my brain of and had forgotten and lost in the moment.

As we were getting dressed she brought up that she would really like to see me again, if I wanted that. I said yes, we pulled up her calendar, and picked Friday.

More of this, please. This quality girl and this way of having sex. Such a pleasurable experience.

 

[Bman]

Lock-in lay with Buddhist Girl... 9 months later. Lmao.

Had her over for a shoot this evening. She's a metalhead, so we did metalhead next door kind of vibe. Then capped it of with a nice romp. Awkward kisser, but amazing at giving head. And pussy stays just as wet as I remember. Also, photoshoots are such good escalation devices if you structure the poses you're capturing to go from mild to wild, some clothes to no clothes. You command her the whole time. You're judging her beauty. You're touching and adjusting her. And for girls who are exhibitionists, they are getting such a thrill. Definitely a kink for me. Early 20's Brandon is fucking ecstatic right now.

Also! Spiritual Girl and Nurse Girl are up for a threesome! I talked with Nurse Girl about what happened with the suicide attempt and she really believes it was an extreme reaction to her going cold turkey on her anti depressants. Which given how much of a sledge hammer that is to neurochemistry, I can believe that. Still not going to do any extreme kink with her, but she seems very stable now. She's had lots of threesomes before, so that's a plus. This will be Spiritual girl's first one. And of course my first one!

Slow months turn into fast months. The game is so unpredictable sometimes.

 

[Bman]

Had Bumble Girl over again last night. I'm actually a little sad that I met her the month I'm about to leave. I really like this girl. I was watching the killer instinct panel a little while ago and Markus from UMP was saying how after dating a lot of women you know what it feels like when one comes along that hits right for you. The connection both physically and emotionally feels natural. Like neither of us are forcing it or trying to play some role, we just natural sink into those roles.

During the first round of sex I did a little impact play with her in the middle. She was getting really into it and then called yellow. She was starting to get emotional and needed to cry, which sometimes happens with girls because of all the overwhelming sensations and emotions. I've had other girls cry before. I can remember of the top of my head Cinderella Girl after giving her a Yoni massage and Spiritual Girl after an intense orgasm. So I held her, told her it was ok to feel and show whatever wanted to come up, and how beautiful she was being vulnerable. She did cry for a moment and thanked me for holding space and being so kind to her. Then we proceeded to fuck like animals once again with her face pinned into the bed as she screamed in pleasure.

We cuddled in about a dozen different positions, laughed a lot, and talked about philosophy and the meaning of life. We connected with each other on worldviews, then easily and respectfully disagreed on a few. At one point she was nuzzled into my chest and my armpit and commented she loves how I smell, which we'd just come down from being sweaty fucking messes, so if pheromones are a thing, she was definitely taking those in. She also loves giving massages, and not just rubbing your skin, actually hitting the trigger points in your muscles and working them. I didn't even ask her to, in fact she asked me if she could. She even massaged my feet.

I would just look at her face in silence a few times and could feel the sensation well up and thought of I love you run across my mind. Its not the first time its ever happened with a girl and I'm not naive that its just the neurochemical cocktail swimming in my brain like cocaine. But god damn if it doesn't feel good.

We then went for round 2, which I did feel myself getting caught up in my head part way through, so I stopped us because being in my head and performing was not going to be pleasurable for me, and I wanted to be present with her. I let her know that and she was grateful for me doing so.

She was so sweet and polite, saying she knew my calendar was going to fill fast the last couple weeks of March, but if I did get time and wanted to see her again, she would really like that. I told her yes and that who knows, maybe our paths will cross again in our travels. She said she really hoped so and got her phone out so she could follow me on IG.

She was over for 3.5 hours and there was no other way I would have wanted to spend that time. I had the fattest perma-grin after she left. Although I will be leaving, I'd still like to explore what this relationship could be. Its one of the few girls I've felt compelled to really want to know deeper and possibly spend time outside the bedroom with. She also holds some structural relationship values that make that possible, such as not just "trying out ENM" but discovering it jives better for her after previously being engaged. So that may be possible.

I know there will be a few more girls and connection like this in my journey, but this one will not soon be forgotten. I truly wish you all get to experience that at some point in yours.