WARNING. These common meds might give you permanent sex. dysfunction

[Perseus]

Thanks, Ill take his words with a grain of salt then. Hopefully I dont get any unreverseable symptoms. Gonna do the hormone test and see if I can find a way to make topical dut from capsules

 

[Thebastard]

Holy mother of God Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

 

[Tragedy]

Holy mother of God @Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

Thank you man!

I don't know your exact problem and if you were using it on the face, but other than sexual issues, retinoids can have other risks such as permanent eyes issues which are not that uncommon with face cream use, even if you don't put it right on the eyes themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/wu0yoa/research_retinol_damages_causes_dry_eyes/

You might want to consider that too before using. I would also try to address the problem through diet, supplements, optimizing hormones, red light therapy and non-retinoic creams.

I am having face skin issues myself after having worked in the past under constant high exposure of wheat particles that inflamed my skin. For now it is not a priority for me, but as soon as I am getting a job I will start a bunch of safe therapies and report back.

 

[Thebastard]

Holy mother of God @Tragedy I am so sorry to hear about your experience!!!! That truly is eye-watering mate

I didn't use tretinoin cream for a while, mostly out of laziness but now I will need to think carefully about picking up that tube again

Thank you man!

I don't know your exact problem and if you were using it on the face, but other than sexual issues, retinoids can have other risks such as permanent eyes issues which are not that uncommon with face cream use, even if you don't put it right on the eyes themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SkincareAddiction/comments/wu0yoa/research_retinol_damages_causes_dry_eyes/

You might want to consider that too before using. I would also try to address the problem through diet, supplements, optimizing hormones, red light therapy and non-retinoic creams.

I am having face skin issues myself after having worked in the past under constant high exposure of wheat particles that inflamed my skin. For now it is not a priority for me, but as soon as I am getting a job I will start a bunch of safe therapies and report back.

I didn't have any issues, it was more for optimising my skin and its meant to be good for getting rid of wrinkles if you use it long enough. GLL had great success with it.

Didn't know about the permanent eye issues! Scary shit

 

[Perseus]

If nonetheless you decide to go with Dutasteride, I would first have a full hormonal panel, especially sensitive estradiol measured with LC/MS method (the other method is NOT ok).

So what would I specifically look out for? And do I also need to measure testosterone?

 

[Tragedy]

Me myself I would measure at least T, DHT and E2 sensitive.

For 2 reasons: to have a baseline to compare for the future and to check if T/E2 ratio is alright.

Lowering DHT increments T as a consequence (because T is not converted anymore).
High spike in T might crash E2.

I'll copy-paste you something I wrote in the past for research purposes. Hopefully it's not just buzzwords.

<<The excessive activation of the androgen receptor pathway, coupled with low estrogen levels, can lead to the inhibition of estrogen receptor expression [through transcriptional regulation, competition for co-regulators, and epigenetic modifications].

These biochemical processes ultimately disrupt the balance between androgen and estrogen signaling, affecting the overall estrogenic activity in the cell or tissue.>>

The point is that estrogens must be in check, you don't want to crush them.

 

[Perseus]

Makes sense. How important is it that estradiol is measured with the LC/MS method? And is there another name for that method?

 

[Tragedy]

In men, post menopausal women and pre-puberal young girls, the estrogen level are very low to begin with. If one uses the classical immunoassay method, the test doesn't have enough estradiol to react to and detect C-reactive protein instead, giving a fake value because it will be measuring something else.

Therefore it is necessary to use Liquid Chromatography Mass Spectrometry method. It is indicated by LC/MS acronym or LC-MS.

Sometime is also called Sensitive Estradiol because it's the one sensitive enough for men. If you use the other method you are wasting your money and getting a random number that doesn't mean anything.

MorePlatesMoreDates has an article comparing his results with the 2 methods to see the difference, you can look it up if you are curious.

 

[Juicy3lf]

Tragedy

What do you think of having 17-beta estradiol of 156 and SHBG of 68?

 

[Tragedy]

@Tragedy

What do you think of having 17-beta estradiol of 156 and SHBG of 68?

I would need the range because every lab is different. I'm assuming that the first is 15,6 therefore in range but maybe the second is above average?
I need more context to comment.

 

[Juicy3lf]

@Tragedy

What do you think of having 17-beta estradiol of 156 and SHBG of 68?

I would need the range because every lab is different. I'm assuming that the first is 15,6 therefore in range but maybe the second is above average?
I need more context to comment.

Range estradiol
41.4-159 pmol/L
156

Shbg
18.4-54.1nmol/L
68

Does that help?

 

[Tragedy]

Range estradiol
41.4-159 pmol/L
156

Shbg
18.4-54.1nmol/L
68

Does that help?

Yes, they are quite high. On their own, maybe they wouldn't be a problem, but if you're experiencing sexual symptoms (I remember you are), you gotta address them.

First thing, you should get more tests to see why they are high and check the status of other hormones.

You are clearly not obese, so let's rule out the most common reason. Another possibility could be inflammation (since you've had penis/nerve injuries in the past). The most common type is gut inflammation, known to cause high E2.

Nonetheless we are speculating, you need to do some detective work.

 

[Perseus]

My test results finally came in:

17 beta estradiol (ECLIA method): 228 (41-158) pmol/l

Free test: 0.674 nmol/l

SHGB: 17.6 (18.3-54.1) nmol/l

DHT: 0.51 (0.31-2.16) nmol/l

So my DHT is pretty low but could be lower which checks out with my current hair loss situation.
My SHGB is low and my free test and estradiol are both high, especially estradiol.

From my understanding low SHGB usually does result in higher test and est levels which also checks out.

My estradiol is however about twice the normal amount. Could this be a concern? I dont have any symptoms such as gyno or ED. Keep in mind that I have already been on finasteride for 3 years

 

[Perseus]

Second week on dutasteride 1mg/week, no noticeable changes so far

 

[Tragedy]

Could this be a concern?

Hey man, sorry if I didn't see your message, my life has been quite chaotic.

How is it going now?

So, basically because finasteride lowers DHT, your body ends up with more unused testosterone. This extra testosterone can then be converted into estradiol, therefore your body's hormone balance shifts towards estrogen, creating an estrogenic environment.

With more estrogen around, your body's estrogen receptors get more activated. Over time, too much activation can lead to these receptors becoming less sensitive (aka downregulation). This desensitization can mess with a lot of estrogen-dependent functions in your body, from mood regulation to sexual health, genital sensation and so on.

On the other side, with DHT levels dropping due to finasteride, your body tries to compensate by making androgen receptors more sensitive to the androgens still available (like testosterone). That's because testosterone is very less androgenic than DHT, so you need more. This body "fix" can therefore lead to androgens receptor dysregulation.

Also the low SHBG means more free hormones, including estrogen and testosterone, that will be free to go around and mess with your receptors, so it's two side of the same coin.

This whole picture is, to the best of my knowledge, how PFS symptoms start. That doesn't mean you will get PFS, it totally depends on your genetics and epigenetics, and none can predict who will win this disaster lottery. Nonetheless I would SLOWLY restore back your hormones within range, especially estrogens.

PS: I will remind again that LC-MS is the only really reliable method for measuring estradiol in men. Yet ECLIA is still and indication on what we were expecting.

 

[Perseus]

Tragedy No worries, thanks for elaborating. Im feeling good, no changes in mood or anything except maybe an even higher sex drive. Now that I understand the full picture it does sound concerning. Ill be sure to keep an eye on any red flags.
For lowering estrogen, would you advice taking something of an antiestrogenic nature, or taking on some root cause (too little DHT)?

 

[Tragedy]

GoodLookingNerd you could both try to lower DHT more topically and less systemically, or try to limit estrogens conversion/binding with anti-estrogenic supplements.

maybe an even higher sex drive

Testosterone is the sex seeking hormone (proactively starting pursuing sex out of the blue) and Estradiol is the sexual arousal hormone (getting turned on physically once the sexual element is there). Obviously this is a simplification and it is also important their ratio, not just their absolute level.
Nonetheless is it indeed possible that estrogens make you more physically sensitive to sexual images and thoughts, if that is what you meant by higher sex drive.

 

[Perseus]

Tragedy Yeah that makes sense. Due to regulations Ive only been able to get capsuled Dutasteride (so not pure tablets) which also contains some kind of gel. Do you reckon its possible to make a DIY topical solution? From what Ive seen dutasteride particles are small enough to penetrate the skin but in a gel solution it may behave differently

 

[Tragedy]

Do you reckon its possible to make a DIY topical solution?

In principle yes, given you get a proper vehicle substance, but in practice its efficacy depends on the internal capsule composition, especially if dut is further embedded into microcapsules. This is a bit outside my expertise though, I would get the ingredients and ask someone in the chemical/pharmaceutical field

 

[vibe]

Thanks for the post, very informative.

You mentioned that minoxidil can possibly cause permanent ED and that you know people who have ED as a result of using minoxidil. Did they use minoxidil in the form of a solution applied on the scalp or foam? Something like these products?