I wish I'd seen this video Andy made about Bratty girls so I could have known more about what to expect and how to make a good interaction happen...
https://youtu.be/I2gIo8rC-KI
Regardless, this was not a good point for me and left me in a bad headspace.
This post will be long but you all gave me a lot of value. I've read and ruminated on each of these and aim to learn from my mistakes here.
Zug said:
If a girl wants to go full bratty and experience the fantasy of being overpowered, fine. You *HAVE* to communicate more than just a safeword before hand. HAVE TO. You need her to explain her hard limits, and you're going to have to dig for this and ask explicitly. It is not sexy or erotic in anyway to do this. You need to her to repeat the green/yellow/red/<safeword> to you and what they mean. You need to protect yourself, especially if they're inexperienced and don't even know what they actually want. It is too easy for it to go too far.
You cannot do this in a public place in a car as a first time (that was completely idiotic). You need to make sure she actually CAN and WILL use her words. I'll get her to repeat what green/yellow/red/<safeword> means again in the middle of the act. Make sure she is actually capable of using them. There's some women who just whisper it inaudibly or just won't say anything for any reason because <insert past trauma>. Those are hard dealbreakers, they're incapable of looking out for their own interests, and I can't read minds.
It is best to use a lot of dirty talk and psychologically dominate her as well. Dominating through only force is less erotic, and becomes gross quickly. Set the psychological frames through the dirty talk. Once that is done, make her beg for you to do what you want to do anyway. Force her to say it again, then again louder, then again even louder. Make her beg. The psych stuff is more powerful than pure force anyway. Make her a participant in her own fantasy. It gets her buy-in to everything and protects you if she decides to feel regret later. Everything you described is like textbook example of how to end up getting arrested. All the legal risk is on YOU, not her. You are the one responsible for leading the interaction and make sure it doesn't become something either of you regret.
I'm not judging anyone for their kinks, but CNC/rape fantasies are a logistical nightmare for the guy. You're taking on incredible risks playing with those. I don't see anyway you can do it with someone you've never met in a way that won't lead to you traumatizing each other to some degree. Re-read your story, you two didn't have any good communication, didn't know each other well, and you can see that this was traumatizing both you and her.
Lessons learned here:
1. DON'T DO R**E FANTASY GIRLS
2. Don't be dumb, if she wants to be bratty move it somewhere private
3. "Communicate more before". Lean towards the overcommunicating rather than undercommunicating.
4. Practice verbal domination.
5. If you feel like you "have to" use force, stop. You're doing something wrong and need a break.
6. Be cautious around brats (ensure thorough communication) and hard stop on uncommunicative girls.
pancakemouse said:
I wouldn't call it a rape fantasy, more that she's a "Level 3 brat". I think I wrote about this on @Aku's log. I've been with a couple girls like this. In order to initiate sex, you have to "checkmate" them, which means physically overpowering them into submission.
The description of her hurt to read. I'm glad you've decided to screen harder. No more fat chicks, no more country bumpkins, no one that uses filters. You're an attractive guy, and attractive guys have standards.
Lessons learned here:
1. She was a brat that was more than I could handle, though it hurts my ego to admit.
2. Checked out that blog. That and Andy's video make me open to the idea of brats again, but as before---it must have strong communication.
3. I will need to be more honest with myself on the actual date. Maybe something like 30 minutes in, I check if I actually would like this girl, would want to see her again. And if she's fat or definitely different from the pictures, I'll look at my watch (connecting the observation with my planned action) and say, "hey, this was fun, but I'm not feeling the chemistry. Let's end this here." or something along those lines. (The
major drawback is that all girls in my state use a filter of varying degrees, most use it quite strongly so I can't use that for a screen-out without losing all potential girls (though I do need to focus on in-person).
Holden said:
Since you tagged me: I hate bratty girls in general and I was going to say "use a safeword" but then I read you actually did try that. If they're not game with using safewords, I just go. You're not obligated to have sex with girls, yes even if you just drove 1 hr.
This entire report is like one huge trainwreck man. Hard to even know where to start but you seem to get what went wrong.
I can't give any advice on "bratty" girls because to me it always comes across as a convenient excuse for the girl to act like a bitch. So as soon as they drop hints in that direction I just tell them "that won't work for me" and if they don't change their tune I'm out of there. That includes when they text me that they're brats.
Lessons learned here:
1. This experience was like those books we had to read in high school, where it got bad, then you hoped that was it, then it got worse. The culprit was my insufficient screening and being too "unpicky" and too caught in the moment. I'm tempted to edit my original post but have decided to leave it up for now for future guys to learn from my mistake and near-miss.
2. Once again, I need to communicate more. After hearing what good, healthy bedroom brattiness looks like, I think I'd like to try it... but nothing as harcore as this and only with a very communicative partner (as this one was decidedly not).
KillYourInnerLoser said:
Zug said:
I'm not judging anyone for their kinks, but CNC/rape fantasies are a logistical nightmare for the guy. You're taking on incredible risks playing with those. I don't see anyway you can do it with someone you've never met in a way that won't lead to you traumatizing each other to some degree
This. Since you asked us for advice, here it is: don't ever do a CNC/rape fantasy. That's what I call "destructive sex", rather than "constructive sex". We're here to improve ourselves and the people we're around, right? I can't guarantee a CNC/rape scene would hurt you/her (I can't know the future) but it's definitely playing with dynamite.
I think there are some things in life you never need to explore. If you ultimately decide to try it, you're an adult and I can't tell you what to do - but know that I wouldn't recommend it, most guys here probably wouldn't recommend it, and it's a legal, moral and ethical grey area (as Zug said, how do you know you won't traumatize her and yourself?)
But the only question that really matters is: "Do I believe doing this help me move towards the person I want to be?" That's a question only you can answer - not us.
Lessons learned here:
1. Avoid the CNC and CNC-adjacent fantasies. Talk to a girl about what she likes and dislikes. If she wants to be coy and won't cooperate with making it so it doesn't feel like a minefield for me (trying to maximize her pleasure without overstepping some boundary myself), then odds are that girl is not a good fit for me and I'll zip myself up and end the date there.
2. Yes. Constructive sex is the goal. I want win-wins, and say so to most of the girls I see at some point to try to screen for the girls open to making win-wins.
3. Some advice RedQuest told me in a private chat applies here: Feel free to take risks, but don't do something risky without fully understanding the risks. In this case, that pertains to anything close to a r*** fantasy.
klondike said:
Brats are one thing, it sounded like she wanted to re-enact the trauma of her uncle fucking her when she was 8, or something.
With super crazy girls like that, there’s no way to get frame—because her insanity has the frame. Best to avoid honestly.
Lessons learned here:
1. Be extra alert for a girl's potential craziness or trauma. If she seems to have a bad background, it may be more risky to do anything kinky or fun while maintaining mutual enjoyment. Screen hard. Avoid the people who seem socially inadjusted, especially girls with few female friends.
AskTheDom said:
There are some good comments before mine that I encourage you to read well and go with a couple of questions.
Second, you are confusing a bdsm play with sex. I know the two are tied together tightly (see what I did there) but CNC doesn't have to be necessarily lead to a sexual intercourse after. Although if you find a partner that finds CNC interesting, I suggest you stay away from these until you learn the basics and understand what bdsm contracts are.
Now let's go to the most important point (beware, when I comment on things I usually sounds harsh, but I'm not trying to belittle you, I want to make sure you get my point across)
You are doing all possible mistakes that an apprentice Dom could do when entering a BDSM situation.
1) You aren't taking your time before hand to understand exactly what the other person wants and/or really want and rushing things just to "do it". Doing bdsm require time and being relaxed, while reading your report the only thing I could tell is that you just wanted to smash and feel dominant.
2) You are doing things unsafely. both for you and for the other person: what if by doing this the cops show up because someone tipped them off? don't get me wrong, I don't say you shouldn't get "frisky" with having sex in a car - one thing it's a quickie that both of you want, one thing is doing certain things with a complete stranger that could potentially end up hurting you or her both physically (I get an idea you don't know how to choke properly and to read when it's too much) and or emotionally ( think if your parents are at dinner and they get a call from the PD saying you are being detained of rape charges)
3) Why are you doing this? I get an understanding that you really didn't like the girl too much and you didn't get even a small bit of connection with her,. I understand you are young (22?) so a lot of things are being "meh who cares, I just wanna fuck" but BDSM and testosterone fueled sex desires need to be separated.
There is a difference with having "rough sex" and doing "bdsm" - as a Dom you are a "service provider" - to provide pleasure to your submissive, here I could get the impressions that this was your baseline mindset- Am I correct?
4) safe words are agreed beforehand not during a play. what I see here there is a constant brake of scene and character. One second you are this dominant guy that is going to fuck her rough and the moment later this insecure guy that has to check (not that it's bad especially since you are at the beginning of this journey, I'm speculating in my head on how things went)
Let's talk about Brats for a second because there is HUGE misconception online.
Andy did a fantastic video in describing the Bratty behaviour - where Brats usually use token verbal resistance or light challenging to get their pleasure (Th Dom flip her over and spanks her ass for being a bratty girl) or to receive the discipline she craves ( she doesn't get to please you and gets ignored for her behaviour)
Being Bratty is used these days as a trojan horse to smuggle toxic trait behaviours or to disguise confrontational/ passive- aggressiveness. Without having more details I cannot tell exactly what is this situation although I have a few ideas
When you win her over, there is only compliance and submissiveness, if she plays silly games or "mess with your head" to see if you would "have it your way" it's probably the biggest red flag and you should do what you have done. Pull up your pants and drive her home. Play games are for play PARTNERS.
The mental mindset that you'd are asking is "This is me and this is the boundary, you flow in it but if you step outside, I'm out and this ends right away" to me it seems like you need more to work on yourself to draw more clear boundaries.
I don't think you should see this person again unless she is willing to commit to an open talk before doing things a little bit more "advanced"
I'll take "harshness" over candycoating. Thank you for this. I won't be seeing this girl again.
Lessons learned here:
1. You're more of a beginner than you thought. Your inner game increased alongside your ego, but you still don't know much about how to "do bdsm" well. The way to improve is by talking/communicating MORE.
2. I had too much of an unexpected time constraint and did not plan sufficiently accordingly. I need to be more time-aware, and not try to push the envelope if it's not going to happen--even when I think there's a "sliver of a chance".
3. There is a lot more risk involved to stretching my comfort zone than I realized. If something is new to me, I need to COMMUNICATE with my partner, or else end the interaction.
4. Yes, I am young. Yes, I should learn how to bring a woman into bed for sex. No, that doesn't mean having sex with girls I could go either way on. And if I honestly lose attractiion for a girl over the course of a date, I should end the date. That's the behavior of a man who respects himself enough to have boundaries.
5. I already want to bring me and my partner pleasure. I should lean into that more, and focus on making it a constructive, healthy pleasure rather than a destructive, unhealthy one. Pleasure doesn't have to have a drawback. It should be beneficial and grow us both.
6. Safe words are something I should discuss beforehand with anyone I'm going to do more than light choking or hair pulling with--and this will be dependent on me learning their preferences BEFORE getting into it. Which points to... COMMUNICATE MORE
7. There are good examples of how to deal with bratty behavior, studying them and emulating them is much healthier than trying to work it out on my own. Don't "turn to the dark side" and "feel your anger" NightRoller. It's not worth it for the cost to your dignity and the potential damage to both you and your partner.
8. I did do one thing right, but I did it late. Learn to watch for red flags, and zip up those pants if there are warning signs.
9. Again boundaries are important to have. If someone starts disrespecting me or I feel tired during an interaction or annoyed, I will choose to end the interaction. And cultivating a mindset where I hard-respect my own boundaries as well as my partner's is something to practice from here on.
I'm not going to pretend that I can somehow internalize all these lessons and start doing them perfectly right away, but now I can focus on them and realize their importance, make them a habit.
One final lesson learned here:
Shut the ego up and take the advice of others. It will hurt your pride. But people will tell you when you're in the wrong, and point you to better paths that will be more healthy for you and those you interact with in the future. Be thankful for the advice. Be glad others care enough to correct you.
And I am genuinely strongly grateful for your input on this. I will work to internalize and act on these lessons moving forward.