Jamgoth's New Progress log - actually striking up the balls to talk to women

[Jamgoth]

Saw your comment about having an "alt" archetype on @Squilliam's log but didn't want to clutter his up so I wanted to comment on something here that I've been discussing with him as well.

It's not enough to have a non-mainstream archetype, you need to actually have one that's societally-relevant.

The problem with your current look is that it's dated. You look like a nu-metal singer from 2003. Is it better than being a normie invisible incel? Sure. But girls look at this and roll their eyes.

Your archetype and specific looks needs to have at LEAST five TikTok/Instagram profiles that you can find of guys that look the exact same way you do that are lusted after by young attractive women.

The other problem is that New Haven isn't exactly known for its alternative demographic. Between Yale and Quinnipiac you have a predominantly white, basic student population.

My advice would be to meet as many women as possible, observe their archetypes, and figure out what guys they are lusting after, then be that.

If you ever make it down to NYC, let us know and I can give you the rundown.

If you're located in NYC, could I drive down for a weekend and watch you do cold approach and also discuss fashion?

 

[Jamgoth]

On the advice of people here, I've toned down the accessories. I still wear a chain around my neck and one ring so I have at least some edge so I don't look like a total nerd but without the full blown emo look. As I've said in a different thread, my hair hides my receding hairline, which I'm working to fix, once it's fixed, I'll get a fade because that's in style.

I went to walk around a bit with the intent to cold approach, but couldn't bring myself too. I ended up approaching a guy, not to flirt, but to make small talk. Part of this is mental. Last year I felt like I could pass for early 20s despite being 28 so I could blend with other college students but I feel that my age has caught up to me, and that I'm too old to really be preying on college students. I get that high value guys can attract hot 20 year olds, but, I'm not exactly a high value guy. I'm working out and doing other things to improve my looks, but I just feel that my time to begin my PUA phase should have been years ago, and I'm too late to the party. I see these young attractive people all around me, and I just old and gross. I've had friends tell me I'm attractive (or at least, attractive enough to pull) but it's hard to override body dysmorphia. I get that this is all in my head, and I need to mentally change my focus.

The other part of it is that there are only certain situations where I feel comfortable approaching, if a woman is by herself, AND I'm in a situation where it's expected to socialize like a bar. This is the only scenario where I don't feel like I need to overcome approach anxiety. If I see a woman walking along the sidewalk, it takes a while to build up the courage to say anything, and by that point we've already seen each other and it's too late to say anything without it being awkward. I don't feel brave or competent enough to approach groups. Also, even if I do approach often I don't know what to say other than "hey what's your name" and "what are you studying" which I get is a boring topic and doesn't make the panties fly off, but I don't know what else to say.

There are two social spots that I plan to hang out at just so I have a go to to meet people. A Starbucks for daygame and a bar exclusive to Yale students for nightgame, that actually seems to get a fair amount of traffic even on weekdays. I've read a little into game and I've been given the advice that I need to make things flirty as soon as possible, so instead of opening with "what's your name", open with "you have a cute look about you, I like your _____, what's your name." But I feel like if I go up to every girl at a bar and go "hey you're cute" it will be super obvious to everyone what I'm trying to do and I'll get a negative reputation. My strategy at bars has been to approach everyone, including guys, the bartenders, girls I'm not interested in, girls I am interested in, and just try to be friendly and mildly flirty with everyone, the idea is that I make a temporary wingman for the night and that acts as my social proof, and if I go to the same place on a regular basis it will be easier to make connections with other regulars, particularly because I don't know anyone yet. This worked for me at one houseparty I went to in DC and got two dates out of it (although I couldn't get a second date with either, but that's something I'll worry about later for when I can consistently get dates). I also made friends with the host of the houseparty and he invited me to other parties he attended, but unfortunately I had scheduling errors and couldn't attend them.

Oddly enough, on the rare instances where I do approach, and she is receptive to me (receptive meaning she's interested in what I'm saying and not just being polite to me to not cause a scene) I feel like I do pretty well (at least for a beginner). Certain concepts like playful teasing, or sexual misinterpretation, or not placating her requests or look like you're pandering to her, or the idea that you don't just ask interview questions, you ask a question then make a comment about her response or her reaction, or making the interaction about you as a couple instead of just platonically asking question after question, or passing shit tests, or physically escalating by grabbing her had or her shoulder then going down if she seems into it, generally getting a sense if a woman is into me, I feel like I do pretty well at (for a beginner). It's just getting to that point is rare. If I can get a positive reaction to the open, I go from total-virgin-newbie-incel-loner-autistic to a semi-competent beginner with the potential to be intermediate, because the positive reaction gives me confidence to be bolder than I usually would be.

On a side note, I didn't make a lot of friends at my undergrad school, and of the few that I did make, a lot of them blocked me around the time I graduated. Some of these people I would have considered a close friend and just cut all contact with me, seemingly independently of each other. Some had reasons, some it just felt completely out of nowhere, and the meager excuse for a social circle I had built up seemingly vanished over about a month or two. One of the people I considered a close friend also went through his PUA phase, entered college a virgin, hit a body count of 20 by the end of his sophomore year. His junior year was covid quarantine but his senior year he had his OLD profile set up to where he was regularly getting hit on by women. I really wanted to keep him as a contact to act as a wing because he figured out this shit on his own a hell of a lot faster than I did, but, the week before finals he blocked me on pretty much everything for no real reason, including blocking my fucking LinkedIn account. Shit hurts. I know this isn't related to the forum in general but my already abysmal confidence is shot to hell right now. But, I know this isn't the forum to wallow in blackpill misery so I'm going to try to be positive. A goal is to make another friend like that and not piss him off this time.

Also, for my masters program, I'm going to develop a Cs get degrees mindset. I used to be the kind of student who stressed about getting straight A+s while also being the captain of every nerdy academic club, and that's part of the reason I'm at Yale, (and having Yale on my resume will hopefully take me places, and it's probably the only thing giving me value right now) but it also made me miserable and stressed and socially stunted and is part of the reason I'm in the mess I'm in. I need to see my masters program as a social education as opposed to an actual education. I will probably do the bare minimum to pass but also join more clubs to increase my social circle, I was thinking boxing and guitar, maybe dancing and or volunteer work if I have the time for it. This is also my chance to mingle with old money so there's that. Maybe I'll find someone to start a business with. If I could find a business partner to open a successful nightclub, that would give me a lot of social proof in my 30s that I don't have right now.

Anyone have any advice or words of encouragement?

 

[Adrizzle]

and that I'm too old to really be preying on college students. I get that high value guys can attract hot 20 year olds

What is high value guy? IMO it’s a socially sophisticated dude that fucks girls. I know a few guys that work lame jobs spend a fair bit of time out at bars but still pull crazy. It’s a chicken and egg scenario.

I didn’t read the rest cos it was too long but keep going man!

 

[Zug]

that I'm too old to really be preying on college students

Via cold approach at college venues? Not yet, but you're getting close to being too old to not stick out. Via OD or other venues? Absolutely and unequivocally not to old.

 

[Jamgoth]

that I'm too old to really be preying on college students

Via cold approach at college venues? Not yet, but you're getting close to being too old to not stick out. Via OD or other venues? Absolutely and unequivocally not to old.

I mean I am a college student myself so it's not like I don't have a reason for being here. But I still feel too old compared to everyone around me. That said, my first girlfriend last year did not pick up on the fact that I was in my late twenties.

 

[Zug]

Via cold approach at college venues? Not yet, but you're getting close to being too old to not stick out. Via OD or other venues? Absolutely and unequivocally not to old.

I mean I am a college student myself so it's not like I don't have a reason for being here. But I still feel too old compared to everyone around me. That said, my first girlfriend last year did not pick up on the fact that I was in my late twenties.

Very few women care how old you are, they only care about whether you look good. Some care about how old you look, but this can be either positive or negative. People don't care about you, they're not thinking about how old you are. To the extent some do, who cares. This is 95% your anxiety about it.

One trick I use is frame this as "So, are you just into older guys or what?" when there is a huge age gap. I think its worth bringing up early when there is a very large gap only. It almost immediately flips any negative context to positive.

 

[Jamgoth]

Found a college bar in the area that seems pretty lively, even on weekdays. Spent yesterday there. I didn't really hit on anyone there, as I don't want to be that weird guy who only talks to women above his league. I just went around introducing myself to everyone. It's mostly just a matter of me just standing next to a group and when they notice me after a second or two, guage their reaction to see if they're interested in having me join the conversation. If I see an opportunity to make a joke that's flirty I will but I don't try to force it. I feel like I do a (mostly) good job of not looking weird but I don't feel socially calibrated enough to actually directly flirt with other women there. Alcohol really helps with social anxiety, once I've gotten a few drinks inside me and have done a few (social) approaches, approaching other groups of people is much easier. I need to learn to do with without alcohol because alcohol kills your gains but for right now, until I gain confidence that I can pull, I'll stick to using liquid courage.

Not related but there's a Nigerian girl who lives on my floor who I think is interested in me. She invited me to her room to chat. The conversation was mostly kinda boring though, and I didn't see any real opportunities to escalate, but I was so bored I didn't exactly try very hard. She did ask me if I were dating anyone and I'm not so autistic that I can't pick up what that means, but other than that the conversation was very platonic, most of the time she was just cleaning her room. I'm not very interested in her. She's okay looking but a bit socially awkward, although that would put her in my league. I have her number and we've made tentative plans to get food later tonight, I figure this will be practice for flirting, as the few dates I've gone on in my life I couldn't pull. I know people say that once you're on a date it's easy to pull, because you can assume interest, but I'm so inexperienced at this I still struggle.

 

[Adrizzle]

She invited me to her room to chat

Should have chatted with your dick in her mouth.

Na but for real this is a huge signal that she wants you. You decide if you want her.

Andy’s escalation guide.
“I want to kiss you”
And then you do it. I like letting the conversation fall off by slowing down my speech, looking at her eyes to lips to eyes, getting closer and doing it.

 

[Jamgoth]

She invited me to her room to chat

Should have chatted with your dick in her mouth.

Na but for real this is a huge signal that she wants you. You decide if you want her.

Andy’s escalation guide.
“I want to kiss you”
And then you do it. I like letting the conversation fall off by slowing down my speech, looking at her eyes to lips to eyes, getting closer and doing it.

No I got that, but it feels socially uncalibrated to go from making "how was your day" small talk to being as forward as that. Maybe I'll shoot my shot tonight

 

[pancakemouse]

Should have chatted with your dick in her mouth.

Na but for real this is a huge signal that she wants you. You decide if you want her.

Andy’s escalation guide.
“I want to kiss you”
And then you do it. I like letting the conversation fall off by slowing down my speech, looking at her eyes to lips to eyes, getting closer and doing it.

No I got that, but it feels socially uncalibrated to go from making "how was your day" small talk to being as forward as that. Maybe I'll shoot my shot tonight

Yes, it's extremely socially uncalibrated and it's good that you recognize that.

From your description it sounds like a completely platonic interaction, but there are some ways you can change that.

Flirt, make some sexual jokes and see if she hooks. Find excuses to touch her.

The Dicarlo escalation ladder is your friend as far as physicality:
https://archive.org/details/vin-di-carlo-the-di-carlo-escalation-ladder/page/n9/mode/2up

As far as pulling:
1. seed something in your/her dorm
2. hey you wanna go check out <thing>
3. let's go

 

[Zug]

Going for a kiss with no physical or verbal escalation is a hard ick for most women. The platonic conversation is 99% your fault. You're responsible for leading the conversation, not her. Topics don't need to be sexual, but they do need to be man to woman. Talk about dating, apps, exes, past relationships, kissing, play some semi sexual guessing games, etc. That's how you go from talking about the weather to asking her if she likes being restrained. If she talks about one of her longer term exes being terrible early on I will take note. Then later, after more rapport you can bring up the obvious "I have to ask, you mentioned how bad X was, why were you together so long, was the sex THAT good?". Now you're talking about sex and she has to qualify in a way.

When you have opportunities like Nigerian girl, where they are attractive "enough" but you don't really care, THAT is the time to lean into trying new things as hard as possible. This is where progress is made. If things get sexual and you don't want to hurt her feelings just stick to oral. Most girls do not feel betrayed prior to penetration.

Focus more on trying to improve and less on trying to succeed.

 

[Antonio44]

Agree with pancakemouse and Zug that you need escalation before trying to kiss them.

However, it does not need to be with words.


I never really talk with women about sexual stuff before sex, and I think especially for new folk there's not a lot of benefit. When I was new to it all, it was too easy to fuck up and over-do and you have to be fairly calibrated to do it.


Instead, I go with physical touch, lower "risk", easier, and also harder to be rejected, and if she does "reject", it's very subtle and easy to adjust and she won't say "I reject it", so in her mind it didn't happen (e.g if you put a hand on her leg she'll just move her leg away if she doesn't like it - whereas with words if you come on too strong you might get a statement like "I'm not comfortable talking about X sex topic").


It's totally possible to talk about the weather while escalating strongly. Just keep chatting, start touching more, getting a bit closer, while keeping the chat the same.


An example with a couple of physical escalation steps over a couple of hours together recently:


Went out with a girl from online, sit side by side in a bar. She asks me what I do, I tease her a bit. I tell her I'm going to guess what she does, take her hand in mine and look at it to see if she's a manual worker or not.

Next, talk more, I put my leg a bit closer to hers, so we're touching one thigh to another softly.

Then, when she says something cool about herself, I say I'm impressed and give her a hug.

Walking on the street, I move her around slightly by putting a hand on her waist to guide her when we change directions onto another street. Note - this is just for a moment, just to do the turn. Can also do the same easily when stopping for traffic lights etc. Don't grab her boobs/ass, the waist/stomach is better.

When we get to my house, and she's shaking a cocktail for me, I squeeze her biceps and tell her she's strong playfully.

When we're sitting on my bed drinking, I sit closer to her, so the sides of our bodies are in contact.

Then I put an arm around her casually while keeping talking, like it's not a big deal.

Then I start leaving more silences in the conversation, enjoying the tension.

Then touch her face, slowly, to brush a hair off it.


At this stage, I really enjoy the tension, like sometimes I'll just keep talking (occasionally forgetting my words and leaving lots of pauses) with her face 10cm from mine, enjoying her eye contact. But usually she can't resist (or I can't) and we end up kissing. A lot of women can't handle the tension and will just start kissing you at this point.



I do well in clubs (where I'm a lot faster with these steps), and think the style has a lot to do with it - you can't talk much in clubs and the physical is everything. When the girl feels like it's her idea, like you're just talking about "safe" topics but why does she feel like she wants to kiss you so much..

 

[Jamgoth]

You're responsible for leading the conversation, not her.

What if she's talking endlessly about boring topics? Do I try to subtly segue from boring shit to man to woman

 

[pancakemouse]

You're responsible for leading the conversation, not her.

What if she's talking endlessly about boring topics? Do I try to subtly segue from boring shit to man to woman

Yes. Lead, always.

 

[Zug]

What if she's talking endlessly about boring topics? Do I try to subtly segue from boring shit to man to woman

Yes. Lead, always.

Like Pancake pointed out, if she is talking endlessly about boring topics and you just accept it, who is leading? Not you.

Sometimes it worth shifting in a subtle way, but don't be afraid to hard shift if you can't come up with better. One thing that is better than hard shifting is spike statement that are observations about her, which then you spring off of into the direction you want.

"I'm getting a very open and artsy vibe from you"
<her pointless response>
"I'm betting you're adventurous and not afraid of trying new things"
<xx>
"Whats the most adventurous thing you've done recently"

This spikes her emotion, and its a hard shift in a direction you want. Focus on paying attention to what she says, make a list, then go down the paths that are useful for verbally escalating. Don't go down bad or useless paths, even if they're interesting. Save platonic stuff for between the verbal escalation steps to sandwich between so it doesn't appear like you're going sex sex sex sex. If she picks a horrible date topic (religion,politics,etc) call it out and just say this is terrible topic for a first date.

I have a blueprint of what I want to escalate with, and everything I sandwich between is based on the topics that naturally come up. When you're on non useful topics, but they're important to her, deep dive by using mirror statements or asking her to clarify or explain further. Pay some actual attention. The goal isn't to have an amazing platonic conversation, but if she is legitimately boring to talk to its worth figuring out.

I let them do most of the talking and my questions are more or less designed to keep them talking while steering where I want to go. There's a lot of dates where the girl asks me 0 to 2 total questions, yet will say shit like she feels safe talking to me.

You also need to constantly be looking for opportunities to tease or make innuendo. Don't let it become an interview. This is actually harder to do and requires an active mental stance. I can steer and lead the conversation without much effort, but paying attention and looking for opportunities to tease her correctly always require active effort. Interjecting funny quips during her story or teasing her on parts of it shows engagement too.

Stop beating yourself up about fucking this up. There is no path upward without multiple painful failures.

 

[Jamgoth]

Stop beating yourself up about fucking this up. There is no path upward without multiple painful failures.

I wouldn't say I'm beating myself up over it, I'm just asking advice on what to say because I'm clueless. I understand this is gonna take some practice before I get good at it. You've all given me good advice and I'll keep this in mind next time we meet.

 

[Adrizzle]

You do you man, whatever happens you'll be fine.

But I highly encourage you to make a move next time you see her in private. To girls having the guts to make the move is attractive, you level of smoothness doesn't really matter. You have heaps of info now on how to do it. Andy's line is maybe not the best way it might be a little clumsy. But it's a cat in a hat, an ace in the sleeve. You can say that line at any point, you are about to leave, the date just started, she'd blabbing about some shit, just stay it and if she's standing there she wants you to kiss her

 

[Jamgoth]

My timid conversationalist skills probably turned off the Nigerian girl. Probably. I saw her in the hallway and asked if I should stop by later and she gave me the "I have work" line, so I'm going to assume for now I missed my chance. Whatever, it's not a huge loss. If she does invite me back to her place I'll try to be a little more engaging but for now I think it's best to accept the loss here and start talking to other women.

 

[Jamgoth]

My problem with approaches is that I really struggle to make them man to woman. I can go up to a guy or girl, introduce my name, make a comment about what's happening, or just ask general getting to know you questions, then segue the discussion to more interesting topics by asking follow up questions or making my own personal comments. I can do this fine enough if I'm not going in with the intention of getting laid. But with a girl I have a fear of just going up and saying "oh hey you're cute." that it's super obvious what I want from her and people will judge me for it and I'll get a negative reputation. I understand this is all mental and isn't actually physically stopping me.

 

[pancakemouse]

You don't have to lead with man to woman. In fact, it's not optimal.

You can slowly make a conversation man to woman at any time.