Manga 🇰🇷: October Update

[Manganiello]

Don’t confuse that for having your ‘on guard’ baseline increased far higher than it was initially

Are you talking about being jaded?

Because that's an entirely different topic.

I really feel for the guys who tried to go all out and achieve abundance and outcome independence which are absolutely critical for long-term dating success but ended up empty-handed, jaded and permanently crestfallen.

Ok ya.


"Permanent" is an extremely powerful word. Id be exceptionally cautious attaching it to anything negative.


You choose your narrative for life.


And we've both seen guys with varying difficulty here. Guys who are naturals who just needed to learn how to make a profile or just talk to girls. Basically they fix everything and then some in 8 weeks.

And guys who started off doing pretty much everything wrong and have a hard time learning.

Those guys struggle. No doubt.

But permanent?
Mmmmmmmaybe.

Usually those guys have a lot to fix.
Have trouble internalizing feedback and have giant expectations.


So ya they'll probably be jaded with that combination of traits. But it's all fixable.


And before someone differs with me. Think about the beliefs your defending and their trajectory. One gives an access to power and freedom the other to is destined for doom.


I'm replying to you,Thebastard, but this isn't really directed at you or anyone in particular. Just something I've observed from coaching and being on this forum. Your words caught something I've been thinking about.



And I always preferred monogamy tbh. But I'm not a staunch believer in it. We'll see what my stance is in 3 months.

 

[Zug]

And I always preferred monogamy tbh. But I'm not a staunch believer in it. We'll see what my stance is in 3 months.

For all the problems monogamy has, polyamory is worse. The "double open" thing is fine for casual IF and ONLY IF both people are super honest, super open, have no jealousy, and actually use protection. Even that is an incredible parley. When I tried polyamory, I had real feelings for both girls, but there was a cap on how much I was willing or wanting to invest in a relationship with a girl who was seeing anyone else. (This may be different from a woman's perspective, no idea).

Abandoning all sense of morality or fairness, I would be willing to invest in multiple women if they were all loyal to me, or if I had multiple wives, but that's logistically a nightmare/impossible in any western country. It also requires significant financial capital. Hypothetically It would work for me no problem, no idea if it actually works for women or if they just pretend it works because losing you is worse.

There's a couple semi-monogamous things I'm sure are ok (for me) and good for scratching novelty - going to bdsm/sex parties, orgies, etc; but only interacting with your partner. Takes the edge off the novelty itch without any cost imo. Some things that seem like it might work for committed monogamy, but I never tested in a serious context - threesomes together, parties with a stranger together.

I've seen some of my partners get fucked by other guys and while I wasn't jealous, it was absolutely revolting to watch. Its like walking in on your parents naked. Honestly, while everyone talks about jealousy, the disgust response is even worse than the jealousy response, so I don't think it would work for me.

 

[Manganiello]

couple semi-monogamous things I'm sure are ok (for me) and good for scratching novelty - going to bdsm/sex parties, orgies, etc;

Just for clarity you mean semi-monogamous as sex with the other person present?

 

[Zug]

couple semi-monogamous things I'm sure are ok (for me) and good for scratching novelty - going to bdsm/sex parties, orgies, etc;

Just for clarity you mean semi-monogamous as sex with the other person present?

You both go and you can watch and talk to other people, but you're not fucking other people. You fuck each other in front of a live audience. I know it sounds a little strange on paper, and it is, but I've tried it and it provided more novelty satisfaction than fucking a stranger to me. It's definitely 100% monogamy still, it's just real fucking far from vanilla.

 

[Holden]

Zug

1) The cap thing to your investment is true. Biggest drawback to doing the player harem thing. I feel like an idiot if I spend time and energy doing romantic boyfriend stuff if I know the girl is also getting plowed by someone else. So I don't do it.

2) It's possible to have girls be loyal to you while you fuck other girls, for the simple reason that men and women are different. I have two girls exclusive to me right now, a third one too really but we haven't had a conversation about it, she just doesn't sleep around at all when she's dating someone.

3) It has nothing to do with morality and it's absolutely fair, first of all because men and women are different, second of all because all is fair in love and war. I bring more than enough value to a relationship to demand exclusivity.

If a girl wants me to do romantic boyfriend stuff, I tell her I would enjoy doing that and I like such things, but only if she's exclusive to me. That's a fair trade.

If we're still at the "come drink wine at my place and fuck" stage, then they can do whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. But getting (fancy) dinner, taking trips, spending significant time together outside of the bedroom = I want something in return.

I know you're looking for a wife & kids, which definitely changes things, but most guys aren't (yet) so they can definitely afford to see how far the player thing can take them.

 

[Zug]

2) It's possible to have girls be loyal to you while you fuck other girls, for the simple reason that men and women are different. I have two girls exclusive to me right now, a third one too really but we haven't had a conversation about it, she just doesn't sleep around at all when she's dating someone.

3) It has nothing to do with morality and it's absolutely fair, first of all because men and women are different, second of all because all is fair in love and war. I bring more than enough value to a relationship to demand exclusivity.

2- I'm not arguing whether it happens, obviously it does, but I have no experience if women really do accept this or not, or whether the cap their investment too. Maybe they do, no idea.

3- I don't think it is fair in a vacuum. Things don't have to be symmetrical to be fair, and relationships don't need to be between equals either. That said, her being loyal while you aren't is so inherently lopsided that I don't see it being moral unless you are bringing something else equally lopsided to the table. That's obviously possible, but most guys are not.

I'm not really concerned with fair personally, never thought fairness in any aspect of life was much more than childish fantasy. In terms of LTR, my concern isn't fairness, its "is this something that promotes or harms long term stability in the relationship, or harms/interferes raising children".

 

[Manganiello]

I think I'm done with getting laid for the sake of getting laid. Relationships seem vastly more important. If this girl doesn't work out I might work on day game.



Update 8/21


Stealing a girl from other guys


Being around her is really eye opening. Just how much attention guys throw at her.


Love confession 1

Aside from constant eye contact. She was telling me how she has trouble talking to her best from grade school. Her friends all warned her he was going to confess his love to her. So she had to stop spending as much time with him, because she didn't feel the same. She bought him some sort of gift for her and she didn't want it and was worried he was going to give her a ring or something...


Love confession 2

Then, she told me that one of her profs from University, later became a friend. Drunkenly phoned her after getting engaged and confessed he always loved her.


Beating out Bumble guys



View attachment 1




Then later that day we're walking together holding hands. And this white guy is just giving me hard eye contact. I thought nothing of it.

And then her and the guy say "hi" awkwardly.

What was that?

"Umm..." she was like trying to say something delicately.

"Lol stop being weird. Just tell me."

"He was that other guy that I was going on dates with too"

"Oh that was him?"

"Ya... He actually asked me to be his girlfriend one week before you did".

"So you said no?"

"No I just didn't answer him."

"Why?"

"Well I was always thinking this guy has lots money, but Brandon is more fun."

"Wait so right after he asked u that, u asked me to go on a trip and meet your friends?"

"I guess so... I just felt comfortable around you."



That was eye opening.


As she described more. This other guy was fucking loaded. Had money. Looked better than I did arguably. But lost out.



what girls want ....


I think what she was really saying, and Ive heard it heard before; a guy might check the right boxes for a girl. But she'll go with the guy who makes her feel more alive.


1. Pass the looks threshold
2. And then... Pass the personality threshold.


Slightly ego gratifying to know I beat out a long list of guys.



...But it remains.




3 months


3 months...

I told her that's a yellow flag for me.


And she was just saying matter of factly: Her last relationship (also her first). Ended after 3 years. So it's sort of waste. If it's not going to work you should find out quickly.

... Ok that makes sense.


Especially because she has an idea of her where a relationship fits into her life and where she wants to be in 5 years.



...But 3 months is still like artificial.

Honestly I take that as meaning she's not 100% sold on me. Shes still wondering 'what else is out there?'


One way or another she has to be so sold on me or that has to come up.


But this whole episode is making me realize.


Frame


Frame


FRAME.


Frame
Frame
Frame
Frame
Frame


What's my frame in this?


Because as soon as I think too much about her.
I lose my frame.


The problem here is that as I think and understand more of what she likes and wants. The more I think about it. And those thoughts begin to take up space in my head.

It's like an opportunity cost for my own thoughts about what I want...

Zug wisely said you should enter a monogamous relationship when there's a plan for you and the girl. Didn't totally make sense when he said it, but now I'm starting to understand it more.


It's important to know what I want.


Getting laid isnt as complicated.

When youre getting laid that more or less doesn't matter. Girls will bang you. And if doesn't matter if life goals match or not.

It's easy actually.


But I have to really define what I want specially to a level that I can make sense of this entire thing.

What will I compromise on and what will I not.

What do I need to have and what am I willing to give?

It's still hazy.

I know for sure. Once I'm done with smashing chicks, I really care about money. And making lots of it in a way that fits into my life vision.

Cool. But what does that mean with my relationships now? What questions should I be asking myself and screening girls with according to that?


It's like every step of the process. You master one step and then run into problems on the next.

I feel like I'm dealing with end game questions and problems.

 

[Manganiello]

Update
Part 1/2

Ending the uncertainty and weirdness of the relationship.




background


Been seeing Viet girl for 3.5 months.
Last month she said she wanted to trial an official relationship and see where it went.

That NEVER sat well with me.

And I told her that. But it was never clear to her how unwell it sat with me.

So for the last month. I've been thinking this relationship 60% chance ends soon.

Lots of guys I talk to regularly thought it would end sooner with 90-100% certainty.


So, I always kept one foot out the door.


And even the relationship has been really good. It's been surface level

As the feelings grew stronger for each other the need for certainty grew.


For the longest time I had no idea she actually wanted to see me. So I was purposefully distant with her.

Eventually she brought it up.




Conversation 1
Tuesday



Her: It's been 1 month. How do you like me? What's good? What do you want to change?


Me: I like how devoted you are to your friends and family. I like how funny you are and how it's always fun being with you.


Her: And what to you want to change?


Me: Well. I don't like how I always initiate the texts and calls. It's fine. But it's annoying that nothing happens unless I do it.

But that's not that important. The big thing is that, you asked for 3 months. And that sounds weird as fuck to me. And so because you said that. I think you're unsure about me and I kind of think this relationship will be short.


Her: Well I said that because I wasn't sure about you.


Me: I know, but a relationship is black and white. It's yes or no. Not a maybe. So I think if your a maybe, it's actually a no. So maybe this relationship will be short.



She's silent. And I take that silence to mean she's not sure if she wants to see me still.




This thing still being a royal pain in the ass and confusing as hell... I get some feedback:




Getting Feedback



===========================

Feedback - Experienced guy #1
- 5 years of game
- 100-200 lays


Never, ever, ever, ever for any reason ask a girl for a relationship first.

Because you asked her first she'll never want to be with you. She'll think you asked because you lacked options. Now she likes you less.

This will never work. She will string you a long. And slowly put your under her thumb.

===========================

Me:
Probably not wrong. But it doesn't feel totally true. Could go either way. Shes either not sure about me and keeping her options open. Or she's waiting for me to commit before she commits.

===========================




===========================

Feedback - Experienced guy #2
- 8 years of game
- 200-?00 lays.


Guidelines are for noobs.
You know what you're doing.

Macro explanations of game aren't useful for individual girls.

Shes changing her behaviour to keep you happy. That's the biggest indicator out of any.

===========================

Me:
Also probably not wrong. Ok well. I just don't want to wait 3 months. She knows me enough she needs to decide now. Because I need to be able to assess the relationship based off of having a real relationship, and if she's not sure, she never will be, so I'm better off looking for better girls.


===========================

..After..





Conversation 2
Wednesday




After talking to guy #2. I immediately call her. Just go see how she's doing.


Me: What did you do today.


Her: Bought some cosmetics to feel better.


Me: to feel better? Are you sad?


Her: I was.


Me: Why?


Her: I don't know.


Me: Well when did it start you seemed happy when we talked earlier today.


Her: I was.


Me: So after the call you felt sad.


Her: Yes.


Me: Why?


Her:... I don't know.


Me: I think you do.


Her: Just seeing you having fun with friends...


Me: So you felt bad about my friends?


Her: No...


Me: What is the real reason?


Her: Just I feel like how I did before I broke up with my ex.

(OK finally some honesty...)


Me: How so?


Her: I just feel unsure.



... ANYWAY...



So the conversation goes on. I dig dig and dig.

And I find it.


Shes afraid I'm going to leave her. And that I don't care.


Because I said this:

"The big thing is that, you asked for 3 months. And that sounds weird as fuck to me. And so because you said that. I think you're unsure about me and I kind of think this relationship will be short."




Me: Ok well. What do you want? Do you want this to go longer.


Her: Yeah that's why I asked you what you thought of the relationship.

Shes crying a bit.


Me: oh really?


Her: 네. (She says a little bit in Korean)


Me: alright this is dumb to talk about over the phone. I'm gonna get a taxi.


It's midnight. I work the next mornong.
But I get a taxi. Drive to her place. She gets too blankets and we go to the roof of her apartment and just talk.

Talk for 2 hours. Its really emotional. With sporadic makeouts. But we take care of it.

She wants to go longer than 3 months. And she knows I do too.
Took so long to sort that through because the games we played with each other. Because none of us were super communicative on how we felt.

...













What's next?








Will I be with her forever?

I mean of course... I don't know.

Shes definitely wife material. But do our goals and ambitions line up? Time will tell.


I'm free to build up a fun life around my goals now. And have a good time in Korea.

But more importantly I can build up my next 3 year goal.

It's been 2.75 years since I set me last 3 year plan. And if worked brilliantly. Sex life is totally handled and there's a lot of great memories.

But what's after this?
Probably money, and possibly finding the right girl if this girl doesn't work.

There is a chance this relationship falls apart. And I might come back and do Day Game. But I got a pretty girlfriend who has a lot of green flags. My goal for any LTR girl I get was get a girl who was worth the effort. So important I have to able to look at her and think. Ya your the kind of girl that made the suffering worth it.

I do feel that way about her. But like I said. I'm not officially done with game until I'm married.

But unless something changes I'm switching gears and focusing big picture again on the next big thing to take on.

 

[Fodu]

It's like every step of the process. You master one step and then run into problems on the next.

I feel like I'm dealing with end game questions and problems.

Good stuff man. It’s just the next level, after satisfying basic needs of sex, you’re craving a more authentic connection. From what I’ve read of the PUAs in the past, a lot of them eventually settled down. Excited for you that you’ve gotten to this stage.

 

[Zug]

I think the never bringing up relationship stuff first is just general advice to stop guys from trying to lock girls down out of desperation.

It never sat right with me that a guy is supposed to be leading a relationship, yet he's waiting around for the girl to make the first move here. There is a lot incongruence with that strategy.

I think you can universally say that if you want a relationship out of desperation and lack of options it is virtually always bad. I am totally hypothesizing here, but my gut says that if you said you're interested in a real relationship under very specific conditions (mine for example: monogamy, intent to marry, intent to have a bunch of kids, her being a supportive housewife or part time worker, etc). That is the exact opposite of desperation. You're making her qualify for the relationship now, and its obvious you're NOT interested if it doesn't meet that criteria, that is a man with a clear vision and goals and by her agreeing she is agreeing to your goals and vision. Having a shared vision of the future you're building towards is foundational element of what makes a relationship serious.

IMO, you did really well pushing those conversations and picking at her until she opened up. That's leadership and courage. Having a difficult conversation when there are elephants under the carpet. Not just waiting around, hoping it takes care if itself and that good things will just happen to you.

 

[Manganiello]

I think the never bringing up relationship stuff first is just general advice to stop guys from trying to lock girls down out of desperation.

It never sat right with me that a guy is supposed to be leading a relationship, yet he's waiting around for the girl to make the first move here. There is a lot incongruence with that strategy.

I think you can universally say that if you want a relationship out of desperation and lack of options it is virtually always bad. I am totally hypothesizing here, but my gut says that if you said you're interested in a real relationship under very specific conditions (mine for example: monogamy, intent to marry, intent to have a bunch of kids, her being a supportive housewife or part time worker, etc). That is the exact opposite of desperation. You're making her qualify for the relationship now, and its obvious you're NOT interested if it doesn't meet that criteria, that is a man with a clear vision and goals and by her agreeing she is agreeing to your goals and vision. Having a shared vision of the future you're building towards is foundational element of what makes a relationship serious.

IMO, you did really well pushing those conversations and picking at her until she opened up. That's leadership and courage. Having a difficult conversation when there are elephants under the carpet. Not just waiting around, hoping it takes care if itself and that good things will just happen to you.

Part 2 of this is going to be a longer rant about this subject specifically.

"Never ask first" is sound advice if your trying to keep a girl as a sex buddy.

But if you want a relationship it's bad advice. Really bad advice.

There are 2 totally distinct worlds.

The noob and the not-noob.

The same rules that safeguard the noob at the earlier stage end up constricting him later.

That's one distinction.

The other is the world between monogamy-seeking gamers and non-monogamy seeking gamers.

The thing is, is that guys who want monogamy eventually move on and their voice forever disappears from the pickup world. But if someone is gaming forever. They're voice will stick around. And it will appear like they're the sole experienced guy on relationships. But in reality it's just they're the only experienced guy still talking.

Everyone else had their fill of sex and have no need to discuss it at length anymore.

 

[Manganiello]

Part 2/2


Reflections:
Relationships and the redpill's shortcomings.













What got you laid, won't get you a girlfriend.


How to Get Laid advice does extremely poorly on getting a relationship.


While being more alpha, less needy and less nice is good advice for 90% of the newbies who are too beta, too needy and are too nice. It's bad for guys who are players.



A player-vibe can fuck girls.
A boyfriend-vibe can keep girls.



Most guys lack the player-vibe, so they need to get it. So Most advice is geared towards them.


Problem is, you begin to think everything about game is about how to be a player.


But when you want to keep a girl. You quickly realize the player advice fails, and more times than not causes retention problems.


If you want a girlfriend. At some point you need to do needy-like behaviour because she wants to see your emotional investment.


- Getting jealous.
- Texting a heart emoji,
- Wishing her a good day in the morning



... all bad shit to do when your a nice guy who struggles to get girls.



Ok cool. You might agree with me totally at this point.



And you might think: Ya it's ok to do that stuff when your deep into the relationship.



But when does the relationship start exactly?



Maybe you think: After 6 months.


Ok cool. But what about that grey area, where you've been banging for 2 months?



At what point do you show the relationshipy stuff? Some guys might say: Never. Girl should go first.


But what if you like her? Doesn't matter. You need to hold off.


I find that advice tooooo redpilly.



I'll explain in a second... Because this asks a bigger question...


At what point in the game. Do you start being yourself?


When can you actually be the way you want to be?

When can you actually date the way you want to date?


At some point....


You've been fucking a new girl every week.

You know what you're doing.

Your sex life is literally currently in the top 0.5% to 0.1% of the entire world.

It's the envy of pretty much every guy.


At what point can you start doing what YOU want?



At some point you should decide your willing to lose girls in an attempt to date the way you want to date.


Screening isn't just for sex. It's also for living the life you want to live it.


You want to see a plate twice a week? Go for it.

You want to enter a relationship. But she hasn't initiated? Go for it.



Rules are meant to be broken. And rules to be honest are for NOOBS who don't know up from down.


When youve done this enough times. You begin to get a feel. And you can start doing whatever the hell you want, because even tho yourr breaking every rule. Your doing it right because the rules were just guidelines anyway.



So coming back to relationships...


If that's what you want...


If you want a relationship.


Becoming emotionally invested and showing it is perhaps (strongly suggesting) something you need to do


If your fucking a new or several new girls each week. You need to be told to invest emotionally. Your player vibe eventually gets so strong girls get cautious of it.


In fact a lot of guys who are getting laid but still have retention problems is because they're not being boyfriendy enough.

And boyfriendy isn't just about being nice (for the record). It includes confidence and making the girl feel emotionally safe.


But a lot of guys who can get laid simply aren't boyfriendy enough. They should

- Ask to take her to the bus station after you banged.
- Text her goodnight.
- put a heart emoji in it

...Show that you care a little bit after you've scored with her. Because she's paying close attention and is trying to put you into the player box or boyfriend-potential box.









Pickup veterans are probably wired differently than you.



No hate against well meaning guys who advised me. But active veteran players can give really bad relationship advice.


Guys who have 100+ lays and are still not married (or in a married-equivalent lifestyle). Are just different, they have different life aspirations. They're so credible because they're lay count is high. But they're relationship advice is only slightly better than average imo because theyre not as interested in a monogamous relationship.


Most of the world is in a monogamous relationship. Including Chris Deoudes, they're just not talking about it to us because they've moved on. They're not trying to get girls, and they have very little use to speak to guys in a community of novice guys trying to fuck girls.

So their opinion isn't there.


And tbh... even if it was... Nobody would listen anyway. Because you will probably listen to the guy posting recent lay reports more.



So the monogomaous guys who have experience disappear.



So you forget that's the common path for most people. It's not Andy's threesome structure, or One-way open relationships or MLTRs or whatever. Thats rare as fuck. And only a small group of people are interested in that.



So the guys who are doing that might tell you an opinion on relationships that is just that: An Opinion On Relationships. They are in an unconventional relationship structure because they are different people. And I wish they would admit that their value system might not apply to everyone else.




Start making your own rules in life and your own rules for relationship.



Talking to Jack helped me a lot. Not because he told me what to do, but he helped me define my own rules for how a relationship should procede, because of that I knew exactly how to have the conversation I wanted to have.


If it wasn't for talking to Jack there's a chance I wouldn't have a girlfriend.



Jack is one of those 100+ lay count guys who moved on.

He's a coach, so he still puts his advice out there. But his advice and content is geared towards noobs. To get his honest opinion on relationships you have to ask him directly and get his opinion he wouldn't normally share to his crowd.



Point is.

Try and find guys who used to do game, but are married and get relationship advice from them.

 

[Bman]

What got you laid, won't get you a girlfriend.

Yes.

In one of Nietzsche'a books, I can't recall which, he describes that it may be beneficial to be in a marriage first to help them develop into their 30's then be free to follow their own path. Felt incredibly relieving to read after being in an 8 year LTR, married for 4 and rounding up into my 30s. You learn A LOT of skills being married first and then being a player. Particularly in communication, negotiation, setting shared visions, taking responsibility for TWO peoples lives, and that your actions are going to have consequences that you will have to live with for years. Marriage ain't easy, boys. It can be beautiful, but it will be work. There is no free lunch.

One of the reasons that I was drawn to Andy's content over PUA material is because he was still getting laid like a mad man, yet he would still be a gentlemen. A kinky, sexual degenerate. But still a gentlemen. He still acted with kindness and respect. He emphasized communication, being honest and upfront as possible. Most important, that he was trying to leave them better than he found them.

That's the whole point of getting into a relationship. That, you two being with each other creates a better life than any one person could create on their own.

I take that same intentionality into being a player. As a result, I don't get laid as often. But the ones that stick around are a fucking pleasure to be around.

In the last couple weeks, you and few others had been ragging on being honest and screening hard in texts, being very upfront about what you want. Being one of the few who does be as autistically honest and upfront as Andy, and still gets laid, I was going to comment. But for newbs whose main goal is to just get laid a lot, your advice was correct. Do not screen so hard.

However, if you are trying to screen for ONE PERSON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, you better screen pretty fucking hard. My marriage ultimately ended because I was too young when we started to understand what my values were and screen for a woman who had those values. Had I done so, I would bet money I'd still be married.

In your advice on texting when they said "I'm just looking for something casual." you mentioned regular people don't go around saying "I'm looking for kids." Or "I'm looking for marriage." I will never get married again. However, if I were looking for marriage, I would say that. In fact on the first date, I would screen these girls so hard and autistically drill them about their values, what they want in life, ect. I don't have fucking time to be building a relationship with women who does not want the same thing as me. That's how you end up 8 years later wanting to go in different directions and resenting each other because the other person, and this marriage, is holding you back from doing so...

In the 3 hour interview I did with Andy last year I made a small comment that the longer you want a relationship to last, the more honest you need to be from the very beginning. You can't manipulate, be something you're not, and use short term dating strategies. What are you going to do, act for the rest of your life?

At what point can you start doing what YOU want?

FROM THE BEGINNING.

This is why I hammered so much about defining your values and all that "overthinking" in my archetype guide. If you want a wife/LTR/mono relationship than you have to be intentional. Everything that you market on the apps, from looks and so on, should be a reflection of who you are. You want to screen for someone who is such a hard YES for those values, for what you want and stand for. It make the marriage 10x easier. Still work. But you are upping your odds of it's success.

I think it also works for short term dating too, if you have enough SMV, but I argued that point in the archetype guide and won't belabor the point here.

Start making your own rules in life and your own rules for relationship.

This. AskTheDom says it best, "What do YOU want?"

Then, tell them what you want. If they want it, great. If they don't, then move on to the girl.

If you want a girlfriend. At some point you need to do needy-like behaviour because she wants to see your emotional investment.

I wouldn't call it needy behaviour. I'd call it recognizing they are human. That you have love and care for them as human beings. You respect them as people. You understand they have feelings.

Recently, Politics Girl was supposed to come over for an all day sexcapade. She got sick and did not feel well. What did I do? Told her to feel well, gave her a few tips to feel better, and get some rest. The next day I checked up on her to see she how she was feeling. Why? Because I gave a shit. I genuinely wish her good health.

I walk girls down to their cars or back to the bar after I just used them like a fucking degenerate because I care for them.

A few weeks ago I went to private sex party at wealthy couples home. The man in the relationship is probably in his 50s/60s. I watched his behavior as a host of the part and how he greeted and interacted with the women at the party, who are all in skin tight dresses or lingerie. He was sexually forward, flirty, and teasing them. However he also politely greeted them, kissing their hand like a gentlemen. He held himself with confidence and you know he was a guy that gets laid a lot.

I don't mean to sound aggressive towards you. I'm just passionate about the fact that this shit is not binary. It's not fuckboi or lockem down. You can do both. It may not be as optimal for getting laid a lot, but again, what is your goal?

Try and find guys who used to do game, but are married and get relationship advice from them.

Also the point of the quote in my sig. Find models that fit what you want. If you don't, make your own by mixing others together.

 

[Zug]

100% agree that all the people that moved on don't post and that's why there is such an overemphasis on fuckboi/player strategies.

Also 100% agree that people here are way too fucking scared of being boyfriendy. Being boyfriendy and a perverted playboy simultaneously is the ultimate female fantasy. Just like we want a girl who is completely down for anything in the bedroom and won't embarrass you in public. People catching feeling is not some fucking flaw or weakness in your character or hers. Neither is showing people you care about them or respect their humanity and individuality. Just because a bunch of cowardly men overdo those things doesn't make them bad. There's a time and place to get a girl flowers, it just isn't on the first date. Telling a girl you enjoy cuddling or enjoy when she cuddles with you doesn't make you a simp. Being afraid to tell her when that's what you actually want does make you a coward.

I'm not as bullish on "doing what YOU want". I've experimented with this quite a bit. Higher resolution descriptions are required. You need to do what YOU want within the boundaries of what works in reality. Just because you want it doesn't mean it isn't too forward, too open, or acceptable to your current culture or society. Crazy examples: If you want multiple wives, you're probably not going to pull that off living in the UK. If you want multiple baddie fuckbuddies, you're probably not going to pull that off living in Islamic countries.

When you start going after your very individualized wants, YOU really need to start figuring out not only what that want is, but what that actually looks like in reality, what it looks like in reality in YOUR context, what would need to be in place to make that happen, and who are the people who would be open to it. It doesn't stop at just thinking about what you want, that's only the very beginning. The entire journey of going through game and learning all the social and sexual skills is leading up to the point where you can start using that knowledge and skill to apply to situations that only exist individually to you.

 

[Holden]

No offense but this reads like the typical revelation guys get when they learn one new thing and suddenly they can explain the entire world through that one lens.

Imo you're in dangerous territory, saying a lot of things with certainty and authority that isn't warranted.

Some misconceptions too.

I don't mean to be harsh or anything but didn't you spend the last few weeks in absolute uncertainty about this girl? now you're saying things like "rules are meant to be broken because when you're advanced you can just feel things"

One of the cardinal rules is seeing girls once a week. You mentioned this too. I still religiously follow that rule. Why? Because whenever I don't, things go south soon after.

Things like "the girl should initiate most of the time" isn't just some random idea that sounds good. It works, and sets the right frame from the beginning. It holds true in courtship, in sex, and in relationships. It's a universal principle. My first girlfriend begged me for months to make it official and we had a wonderful relationship for 3 years that I only ended because she wanted to buy a house together etc.

And I wasn't pretending either; I was honestly in doubt whether or not to jump into monogamy because I finally started to get the hang of this pick-up stuff and then one of my first girls wants to be monogamous... So it wasn't a manipulative tactic or anything fake like that, I was honestly in doubt and that made me much more attractive to her. Like what kind of 18 year old is going to be unsure if he'll make a hot skinny brunette his girlfriend?

And then this: What got you laid, won't get you a girlfriend. Posted in bold.

Says who?

My second mono-girlfriend was a daytime cold approach. Exchange numbers (didn't do IG back then) meet for drinks, pitch second date at my place, fuck at my place. Spin plate for a bit, she starts hinting towards a relationship, be in doubt for a bit, break up with my other girls and go for it.

The relationship starts off on a MUCH stronger foot if you're a player because nothing is more attractive than preselection aka a guy with options.

If you see a girl 3 times per week you're not communicating you have a lot of options, you communicate you clear your schedule for her.

There's a very real thing that happens in relationships that people call "betaization" in these parts and it's a very real phenomenon you need to be extremely aware of and even then it will just fuck you over. Your physiology changes too as your body anticipates you'll start having kids and it lowers your testosterone etc (look it up, it's true, men in committed monogamous relationships get a T-drop)

You start to become complacent and because you're monogamous you have no leverage.

Girl loves it when you fuck her in the ass, date monogamously for 6 months, suddenly she doesn't like anal anymore. What are you gonna do? Break up? That seems petty over such a trivial thing. Cheat on her? Come on, don't be an asshole. What option is left? Just take it. Step by step.

When you're not monogamous this isn't a factor at all, because you can just go fuck someone else. And the girls know it.

One of my friends got married a few years ago and he knows what I think about that and when he was drunk recently he confided in me he doesn't get blowjobs anymore. Suddenly his wife doesn't like it anymore. Well, he's kinda fucked isn't he? Gonna go the rest of your life without another bj? Get a divorce? Over a lack of blowjobs?

Anyway, this was a bit of a digression. But the point is, this process of betaization doesn't happen quite as fast if she knows you're player who can theoretically dump her and have another girl in his bed in 24h. And she needs to know this about you for the relationship to be healthy.

So a much better way to go about finding a girlfriend is spinning 10 plates then picking the girl you like best.

And guess what, for that you need to get laid. A lot.

And you're not gonna get laid a lot by telling girls in the first few messages you want kids. Or you want to get married in 2 years. Or whatever.

And you're also not going to retain your girls for a very long time if you're so fixated on getting a gf that you start breaking all the rules two months in.

And I say this as a guy who has that 0.1% sex life and who also spent about half of his player "career" in monogamous relationships.

Game is about the fundamental nature of the dynamics between men and women, and if you understand those, you understand everything there is to know. Relationships, harem management, ONS.

Fact is there are no "experts" in monogamous relationships because if you've been married to the same girl for 30 years... Well... That's n=1... Just an anecdote. And if you're a serial monogamist who's had 10 relationships in 5 years. Well... Not really monogamous is it.

So there are no experts in monogamy because by it's very nature, if you do it well, there is no sample size.

But a guy who's fucked 100 women? He understands girls better than the guy who married his high school sweetheart for 30 years. Guaranteed.

Fundamentally game is the same thing: learned charisma in order to attract and keep girls. Monogamous or not. It's not some entirely different mythical beast with wildly different techniques. Girls are girls.

At what point in the game. Do you start being yourself?

The whole point of self-improvement is.... improving yourself. Again, every beta normie in the history of the world can get a girlfriend. It's really not that hard. They're also not that happy. You say this yourself: almost the entire world does it this way. Cool, ask them in 10 years how they like it. Like not getting blowjobs, never getting that threesome, having a dead bedroom in general, being the bitch in the relationship.

When I did door to door sales, how many men just said shit like "oh no I need to ask the boss (my wife) first"

Come on dude.

Or my friend who's blowjobless now. That's how normies do it, right?

Every guy wants romance and feminine energy. But you can do those things as a luxury, when you've earned them, when you can afford to lose some "progress".

Just like a 200lbs fat guy can't splurge on Doritos and Mountain Dew but if you're 200lbs and 8% body fat then sure go ahead.

You earn your Doritos by working your ass off in the gym for many years. And you earn your needy romance points by being a player with options 99.9% of the time - and most importantly, the GIRL has to earn it by being a good MLTR for a few months.

"When can I start being myself" has the same energy as newbies who post on Bodybuilding forums saying shit like "wait.... so you're saying I need to change my entire lifestyle, and I can't just diet for 6 weeks then go back to pizza and coke?"

----

Anyway. The tone of this post is probably much harsher than I meant it to be. Do with it what you want, but lots of guys tend to jump from revelation to revelation and completely change their outlook on life and girls and game without taking a step back and seeing the bigger picture.

You want a monogamous girlfriend. Cool. Go about it very carefully and methodically if you want the biggest odds of success. Any normie can profess his undying love after 3 dates and score a girlfriend. I thought we were better than that.

 

[Zug]

Great post Holden ,

Don't agree with all of it, but its good pushback. There needs to be a respect for reality and that needs to be respected more than what we wish was true. I agree totally that there is no change in fundamentals regardless of relationship type, and that 'being yourself' is usually code for "stop trying" or "doing things that just don't work"

Your friend who got married example is where I disagree though. I refuse to believe that isn't a result of a failure on his part. He let the frame go, he is the one that start letting his woman dictate terms, she started doing that because she knew she could get away with it, and she knew she could get away with it because he isn't above her in the relationship anymore. 95% of this is his fault. Just like it would be your fault if this happened in one of your MLTR or FWB situations.

 

[Holden]

Your friend who got married example is where I disagree though. I refuse to believe that isn't a result of a failure on his part. He let the frame go, he is the one that start letting his woman dictate terms, she started doing that because she knew she could get away with it, and she knew she could get away with it because he isn't above her in the relationship anymore. 95% of this is his fault. Just like it would be your fault if this happened in one of your MLTR or FWB situations.

This is not true, again wishful thinking. Ironically you said it the best yourself in this very post: There needs to be a respect for reality and that needs to be respected more than what we wish was true.

I want to be very clear because "everything in life is your fault" is very good advice for 99% of people, and we do have much more control over our lives than we generally realize. However, it's not an iron law of the universe. It is however, a very seductive belief because we like to think we can change and that we have control but sometimes we just don't.

You can't change your height, your race, your genetics. Some things are just the way they are. And if you get married in a Western country and decide to share a house with a woman, you have irrevocably limited yourself, your options, and your leverage.

Let me re-iterate the questions I asked in my post: what are his options? He can't go back in time and become more of an alpha stud or whatever. Is he going to divorce her? Over a lack of blowjobs? Is he going to cheat? That's the most realistic option. But we all agree that's a suboptimal quasi-solution. He doesn't want to cheat. He wants blowjobs from his wife.

A few years ago I had a different harem than now. One of the girls had some congenital issue with her jaw which precluded her from giving blowjobs (plus her jaw made weird popping sounds when she did try which really turned me off.)

My reaction? Totally fine. Because I had sex with other women and got my needs met in that way.

Can my friend say "that's okay honey, I'll just go fuck another one of my girls"? No. And really, that's all he has. He obviously can't force her to give him head.

Even in my monogamous, non-married, not living together, relationships, the girls had an instinctive awareness that I could break up with them and find another girl at any moment, which was the truth. My friend is not in this position and the girl is obviously aware of this, which is why her blowjob disgust conveniently manifested after marriage and after signing a mortgage together.

At great peril to his relationship he can propose they open up the relationship or whatever. Or they can "talk about it" and his wife will reluctantly give him unenthousiastic blowjobs for 3 months before it falls off again.

That's about the extent of his options.

It's seductive to get into "what if" hypotheticals. What if he was more X, acted more Y, did more Z. But that's useless. This is his marriage: his supposed one shot at finding true love. The way we talk about sex here it's easy to say to guys "yeah with the next girl just do more X." But for him, there is no "next girl." This is it.

His only real option is to actually threaten to leave, but he doesn't have the balls.

she started doing that because she knew she could get away with it,

Yes, because he can't easily dump her because he's stuck in a hellhole of legal paperwork with a nasty divorce awaiting him if he does. THAT's why she can get away with it.

No amount of "acting alpha" or "holding frame" can ever trump the legal and material reality of being stuck in your relationship through marriage and cohabitation.

----

To keep this somewhat on topic, similar things happen to a lesser extent in mono-relationships where you're not married or living together. For my part, I always made an effort to dress up to see my gf as if dressing for a first date. Accessorized, well-groomed, stylish clothes. And I made it clear I expect the same from her. And when she started lacking in that department, as is the course of nature, I called her out on it. And if I felt like just seeing her in sweatpants and a hoodie, I fought that instinct and put on some more stylish stuff.

And I made sure I kept going out with my friends (including girls) we kept trying new things in the bedroom, we had sex every time we saw each other, etc.

I guess the phrase "when do I get to be myself" got me going a bit because the nature of this stuff is a constant fight against entropy, in fact, that's life.

 

[Manganiello]

In the last couple weeks, you and few others had been ragging on being honest and screening hard in texts, being very upfront about what you want. Being one of the few who does be as autistically honest and upfront as Andy, and still gets laid, I was going to comment. But for newbs whose main goal is to just get laid a lot, your advice was correct. Do not screen so hard

Ya. Theres a lot of nuance there.

And I think what I and everyone else later realized later is that "I'm only looking for something casual" was for a very niche purpose. And not something that generally worked best.

You can't manipulate, be something you're not, and use short term dating strategies. What are you going to do, act for the rest of your life?

Ya pretty much agree with this here.

I will never get married again.

This might be a can of worms. But why not?

I don't mean to sound aggressive towards you

Nothing you wrote felt that way. At all. Kind of confused by this statement.

... Overall my bigger point is about screening for what you want. And I think I did a bad job writing it because it seems like guys who are disagreeing with me are actually just reaffirming what I was trying to say.


And to be clear this relationship with this Viet girl still has a higher probability for ending simply because I'm defining the next vision for my life rn. And she may or may not be down for the future I want.


And in that case I'm back in the thick of gaming.


I'll enjoy what I have now, and go for the life I want. Hopefully she's down for it because she's pretty awesome, but because my values-screening wasn't done well early on, it might not last super long.

 

[Manganiello]

You need to do what YOU want within the boundaries of what works in reality.

100%. My point was that as you understand the rules more, you see them as guidelines as you get a better appreciation of the actual boundaries.

Don't use emojis for example is not a hard rule but just to prevent guys from turning girls off unnessecarily.

what it looks like in reality in YOUR context, what would need to be in place to make that happen, and who are the people who would be open to it. It doesn't stop at just thinking about what you want, that's only the very beginning. The entire journey of going through game and learning all the social and sexual skills is leading up to the point where you can start using that knowledge and skill to apply to situations that only exist individually to you.

I know what youre saying about defining what you want and being able to practically get it in the real world.

But the "exist individually to you" thing loses me. Can you give an example?

 

[Manganiello]

Fundamentally game is the same thing: learned charisma in order to attract and keep girls. Monogamous or not. It's not some entirely different mythical beast with wildly different techniques. Girls are girls.

Ya. 100%

Holden didn't really interpret that post as being harsh.

I think what you're saying is that to maintain power in the relationship you need to be the guy who has the upper hand in options and the girl needs to see that.

And that most guys fail to generate that level of abundance so they get cucked, by their demanding girlfriend.


Agree.


And I think you were also suggesting that monogamy is bound for that dynamic of being cucked by the demanding wife. Right?


This is where I would differ. I've never seen that with my dad or my friends who have moved on from 'high volume dating' and are married.

Plenty of normie examples that aren't that way. Sure.

I think the divergence of opinion is simply that I don't want to have MLTRs or Threesomes or stuff of that nature. Literally don't want it.

I'm aware of the pros and cons here. And it's more risky to be monogamous. You're giving up your ability to course correct by seeing other girls.


Thing is, is that this girl... she fully understood I had options. She saw other girls stuff in my apartment, different hair, a drawer full of condoms, sex toy I've never used on her, I talked about other girls, and she accused me on multiple occasions I was a player.

She totally understood it and that was an objection she had about me actually. She was scared I was going to immediately cheat on her if we got together.

And the confusion/'uncertainty' part of the relationship was because I wasn't communicating anything with her. I was being distant, making it clear I could see other chicks, basically gaming her, even tho that's not what I wanted to do.

So it wasnt til I put my foot down and said are you In or Out? That the uncertainty disappeared.


I'm not a clairvoyant or an expert on relationships. So there's still a decent chance this relationship won't work.

My larger point is that, being emotionally invested in a girl isn't a "bad thing". Not sure if you were agreeing with me or not.


I'm just saying the voice of monogamy in the pickup community is mostly mute because guys eventually stop talking about it.


Is it the only way? Nope.
And I had no intention of it being the solo lens to look at the world.

I think game overall has its hard rules overall. But as you get different goals the behaviour/'tactics' you need to use to get those goals (with girls) changes.