Thrice said:
I'm over reacting because i'm angry and emotional but it's true that she kept asking to go somewhere and things to do, like i said even if she likes me she wants to do both things and use to go around.
Logically, I think you already understand that this is not rational. Like, if you went to go to join a metal band, it doesn't mean you just want to use the bandmates. But I understand it's hard to "feel" this even if we understand it logically. What would be the absolute worst thing that could happen Thrice if you had went on the date with her? Be specific, what are the fears and how would it make you feel?
BTW - This kind of self awareness you are showing (that you're emotional and it's making you over-react) is good Thrice , being aware of our emotions is one of the hardest parts in the moment. (it was for me anyways). One thing that really helped me was just realising "I feel bad now, but it's just a feeling and it will pass". After time, it's possible to realise what kinda things trigger these emotions in you, and how to help manage them.
I had a lot of trauma from my past (parents used to abuse me, it was real bad). When I grew up and left that environment, I was initially like "all good, I survived and I'm fine".
Then, when I started getting a little bit of success with women, it came back to bite me. I was kinda at the stage you're at now, I had a couple of dates, girls were at least engaging with me. And I just found myself cripplingly jealous of them. Like I wanted to be controlling, know where they were all the time etc etc. I was anxious. It was not fun. I would spend hours thinking what I should reply to their text, what their actions meant etc etc. Often I'd self-sabotage without knowing it.
Later on, I realised, the reason that I was so jealous and insecure was that my early childhood experiences taught me that if someone was nice to me, they would then be bad to me later. Like my dad would be "come play with me", then he could just turn and a switch would flip and he'd be aggressive. So that manifested in me believing that nice people would inevitably be horrible to me later. It didn't just affect my relationships with women, for a long time I was also very uncomfortable around older men and didn't give them eye contact.
I went to the doctor and basically said I am a controlling motherfucker and don't want to be so jealous. They told me I was anxious/depressed, they gave me antidepressants (I didn't take them, but I told the doctor this and they were ok with it, I basically said, "I don't want to take them but you can give me them to me just in case if you insist"), but, more importantly, they also arranged CBT (Cognitive behavioural therapy) for me. This really helped me a huge amount. It was scary because I had to be vulnerable and our sense of self/ego wants to protect ourselves always. But afterwards, I had a much better understanding of why I felt how I felt, and how to be aware of it, and how to handle these emotions. Plus it was very practical focused, it wasn't all just mumbo jumbo. Stuff like "if I feel like I want to go check up on x girl, rather than checking, acknowledge the feeling".
Nowadays, I reckon I'm one of the most secure guys around, but I definitely wouldn't have got there without the help of CBT. Being secure in yourself and happy does attract women, and it
massively helps retention.
BTW - this wasn't meant to be patronising at all, it's sometimes hard to get the right tone in text!
You reminded me, after I finished CBT, my therapist encouraged me to write notes to myself on what I'd learned. I wrote this about 8 years ago, as a kind of emergency cheatsheet if I needed it. I attach them below, I've bolded things that were particularly useful to me, and added any thoughts nowadays in
italics. Not as a kind of "follow this and all will be fine", but moreso to show you that it is possible to change:
CBT notes:
If relapsing then go to step 5 then follow it and can read rest of this for reference
Remember – will not go away straight away forever – when it comes back will be less strong, and manageable – decreasing sin graph. You can self refer back to therapist if you want it.
Better to have small reoccurrence – will give you confidence you can deal with it when it comes back.
This was so true - when I felt jealous again, but was able to deal with it, without being controlling, or avoiding the emotion, it gave me more confidence and I got into a positive circle of reinforcement
Plan
1) What have I learned?
- what fuels problems?
Childhood experiences – parents and lack of certainty.
Trigger situations – (less stable behaviours, feeling less wanted (but relationships will naturally undulate a bit!!)
lead to (vicious circle of):
body(physical feelings) – nausea etc
feelings – jealous, nervous, uncomfortable, anxious
thoughts – she's going to leave, she doesn't love me
behaviours
• desire to check – leads to need more to check – becomes a crutch – say check
where she is, next time check where she is, and what friends say etc.. to point of wanting a GPS tag..!
• seeking certainty – doesn't work – and even causes doubt
• if you don't check, and she doesn't leave – she's with you for you, not because you check/control her, but because she loves and wants to be with you.
• Checking is dependant on other person – not self reliant.
• Analogy of scared of dog bite – microanalysing it's behaviours – e.g shows teeth – will it bite me? Tail wagging furiously – bite me? Etc Not productive
• If you see it through by yourself, much more powerful than checking.
• Checking appeals to 'logic' but not emotions
• Emotions are the things that get to you At the time, I felt kinda "weak" that I had these kind of feelings, like it was bad that I had them. Nowadays, I realise negative emotions are a part of life and that I can manage them when/if they will come
• You will become more secure with more time and letting the feelings pass through and not avoiding it or checkingSo true - nowadays people always tell me that I'm secure and a huge part of it is knowing that I'll be OK whatever happens
There are two types of unhelpful behavoirs – avoidance and excesses
Excesses
• Overthinking
• Checking
• Sexual
• Reassurance
• Drink
• Watch tv/anything to excess
• Distractions
Avoidance
• Avoid trigger situations
• Avoid thinking about it – and avoid challenging/thinking about it) – and not seeing the thoughts through to the end – sticking at painful bit – and not pushing through to a couple of years down the line in visualisation.. e.g someone dies, painful, a couple of years later, have happy memories of them/coping A critical realisation - I was focused on thinking about the pain (that the girl would leave me) and not that in a year or two after breakup I would be fine
• Divert attention to something pleasurable.
• Sexual thoughts (distractions)
• Seeing multiple girls – to avoid risk of feeling bad.
So clique PUA thinking! Nowadays I still see multiple girls sometimes but it's because I enjoy it, it's not because I'm trying to protect myself from scary feelings
If you don't check, and she doesn't leave – she's with you for you, not because you check/control her, but because she loves and wants to be with you.
If you see thoughts through by yourself, much more powerful than checking.
You will become more secure w more time and letting it pass through you – not checking or avoiding it.
THE CYCLE WOULD NOT EXIST WITH NO THOUGHTS – e.g a dog doesn't think
“owner didn't give me my fav food” - he doesn't love me. Thus fix thoughts and cycle is stopped.
My thoughts are misleading and sometimes totally wrong – hence challenging them.
Thoughts → feelings
People who don't feel jealous have different thoughts in the situation thus no jealous feelings.
e.g they know they'd cope – but they know partener likes them too.
Coping – they know it'd hurt, but doesn't mean that they're unlovable – gets easier w practise of breakups.This is true. First breakup is always the worst but over time you realise it's not a reflection on me
2) What was useful?
Thoughts can be wrong This sounds so obvious but I always thought my thoughts were correct.
Feelings are valid as come from thoughts – but thoughts can be untrue – it makes sense to feel like that, but doesn't mean it will occur/is likely – e.g worry dog will bite – makes sense, but not logical.
That feelings are OK to have was a big realisation for me
Changing behaviours
• Increase helpful behaviours – closeness, fun, work on relationship
• Decrease unhelpful – less checking, less sexual thoughts
This is very true, the equivalent would be not consuming more redpill content
Likelihood of leaving occuring is low, and high likelihood of coping. Basically, realising whatever happens, I'll be OK
3) What are high risk situations of a lapse happening?
Away from her, distant, getting on less well, fear of being left by loved ones – not constant affection etc.
Other guys being around that are attractive – combined with us not being that close at the time.
4) What are the signs? (symptoms – thoughts, feelings, behaviours and body)
Thoughts – she's going to leave/likes someone else
Feelings – anxious and jealous
Body – nausea
Behaviours – want to check, overthink, sexual thoughts, avoid it
5) What can I do if I lapse + who can help?
• Thoughts aren't automatically true.
• Feelings will appear + make sense, but doesn't mean it's true – based on inaccurate thoughts.
• Let feelings pass through – if it doesn't, can challenge the thoughts.
• Don't engage with unhelpful behaviours – find out what happens if you do nothing –
let yourself surf wave of anxiety until it levels out again – will lead to long term
security and less anxiety.
Write it down every time (will help you recover faster):
• Thoughts/behaviours/feelings/body
• What stages you went through and how it made you feel afterwards
• What does it say – nothing had happened, thoughts still likely to happen for a while, but they aren't true and it's unlikely - and even if something did happen you'd cope, well
You'd be able to cope much better than you think – you're
fucking great. You're fucking you. Everyone wants to be
fucking you
Some positive self-talk to finish up, being nice to me
