Upstart's AA Program Log

[Holden]

People say phenibut is addictive and there are horror stories out there, personally I always stuck to the old wisdom of taking it once every two weeks max and I never had any issues. Nowadays I only take it on very special occasions, like a handful of times per year. It's definitely pro-social but I don't use it for that, if anything it turns me into the biggest yapper ever, when sometimes it's better to shut up and build tension... I use it for other reasons

Kratom is nice but not very pro-social for me. It's for productivity or to relax.

I'm not one of those no-alcohol purists and Lord knows I'm a functional alcoholic when I date girls & go out, but I have to say that drinking & driving is never worth it man. I'm not your dad but it's not like you're making a great trade-off here, the risk/reward is just not there.

If you really can't take an Uber or whatever then I'd just do it all sober. Maybe kratom is pro-social for you, it's not for me. Phenibut is too addictive to take regularly.

 

[Squilliam]

I always stuck to the old wisdom of taking it once every two weeks max and I never had any issues.

Yeah once every two weeks max should be fine as far as addiction goes. The risk comes from daily/near daily usage of it.

 

[Upstart]

This persistence game is really working...​

This was the last text I sent on Friday.


She replies early Sunday morning.


From the looks of it, she's interested, but cautious. So I'm taking my time.

It really all comes down to not being needy, while trying to move things forward. Having empathy, and responding to the meaning behind her words.

What a mess!

Now divorcee is added the laundry list of red flags to check off.
I reeeally shouldn't but I have to proceed.

Chat, on a level from 1-10 how cooked am I?!

Either way, we're going out on Date #2 tomorrow on Monday.

SELF-HYPE MAN​

Yesterday I had a stern talk with myself.

I do Coach Kyle's 10 min Talk Forever drill pretty much every day which helps my mind to mouth connection (Saying exactly what I think in the moment). A highly effective practice. Sometimes I use it to motivate myself.

On the drive to my folk's place, I could feel myself slipping into more negative thoughts yesterday so I turned that shit around by force.

Sometimes, being your own hype man is all you've got.

DATING PHOTOS​

Pic for the day:

Me at my parent's house in my old room.

I just realized I dress with more edge in real life than I portray on my dating profile.
I'm going to change that this week.

I have a few outfits planned and some poses in mind. I want to get a shirtless photo done soon, but I think I want to lose a few more pounds first. I heard you shouldn't eat the night before and have a good pump before doing that.
And a haircut might help!


The fact that I;ve had at least 1 date each week for the last three weeks would've been completely unprecedented last year or even 2 years ago when I started.

Now it's gonna take some getting used to.

I'm not one of those no-alcohol purists and Lord knows I'm a functional alcoholic when I date girls & go out, but I have to say that drinking & driving is never worth it man. I'm not your dad but it's not like you're making a great trade-off here, the risk/reward is just not there.

I hear you, man. Between Kratom and Phenibut, I've heard Krat is the safer of the two.


@Squilliam "But it is similar to alcohol, they both act on the GABA receptors."

I'll def look into GABA receptors, never heard of that.

 

[Upstart]

IT'S COOKED, CHAT.​

She flaked.


I made a mistake sending the texts after "Smfh at myself".
I even sent a reengagement text, but no response.

I'm mildy annoyed, but also slightly relieved that I don't have to keep trying.

I got to try a "higher level" girl for a moment, and like someone said earlier, I'll soon have an abundance of girls who make this one look mid by comparison.

It's just annoying now, because I put in so much effort and brainpower, and I haven't had any sex to soften the blow.
But at least I learned a lot.

I'll chalk it up to God protecting me from danger.
But, if she responds, I may just keep trying for the EXP points.
Low risk, high potential reward.

At least this has taught me to leave higher wait times between texts to not come off as needy or eager.

Luckily, I do have a girl showing me high interest and willing to go out today, but she's big, not really my type, but fuck it, I'm grateful.

Before all this, I'd be thrilled to be on any kind of date, period. And now it's a regular weekly occurrence, and after I get these photos done, it will be even more frequent than I can handle.

Baby steps.

JUST BEFORE THE DATE: DEMONIC POSSESION​

I had a moment on my drive to the date.

Sometimes I keep my emotions bottled up. Not allowing myself to feel the full expression of anger.
I could feel my thoughts drifting towards the "hate women" side of my brain.
"American bitches are all evil. Girls may look like honey, but sting like wasps."

Those kinda thoughts.

I banged on my head and screamed demonically in my car.
(It sounded kinda like SSJ Trunks powering up against Cell (Japanese ver))


If anyone saw me doing this from the outside, they'd think I was possessed.
But really, I was telling those thoughts to "GET OUT!!!" blasting them from my mind.

I never want to enter that headspace again.
Not only is it a sick mindset, but it's also not true. It kills the momentum behind this whole process.
I think, "NIGGA, would you rather be a self-righteous incel, or actually get laid?"

You would think "get laid" is a no brainer, right?
But the feeling of being a self-righteous incel is insidiously addictive.

Tons of videos validate your mindset, "online dating sucks, modern women are evil, why men give up on dating, the male loneliness epidemic".
It LITERALLY becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if you don't get off the fucking computer.

And all this because I just felt a little bad about putting so much effort into that girl with no reward in the end.

I talked to a friend earlier whose girl just ditched him to back with her abusive ex.

He should be the one hating women, not me.
I've got a boo boo, he's got battle scars.
But he's also been with way more women (at least 80 at this point) so there's that.

THE DATE:​

The date went well. I wasn't as excited or on my p's and q's trying to make sure I did everything right.

She was actually nervous and said I was cool.
She started by asking me some basic interview questions, but I quickly flipped it to get her talking more about herself.

I missed a bunch of basics of making it man-to-woman, and I forgot to call her cute, but I did remember to touch her and keep her talking. Barely seeded the next date. Didn't go for a kiss by the end. (Still following that rule.)
I might have lost this by being sloppy, so if it's cooked, it's cooked. But if we do go forward she's a strong candidate for pound town.

Outfits for a New Photoshoot​

I look like such a goon in this lighting


I am now down to 190.5lbs after being 205lbs on Thanksgiving last year. Abs are poking out now and this is after a full day of eating.


It's raining a lot outside, but my plan is to practice posing at home, look at what scientifically works best on dating profiles for my specific nationality and skin color, then find my best angles, so that when I go out to take photos at cool locations, I can snap quickly and go home.

At the rate I'm going, I'm pretty sure I can lock in a new date every week. Which is completely new territory for me. Once I smash someone for the first time, it will be the foothold I need to get over this slump, and hopefully approach more girls in person.

 

[PinchePendejo]

For okcupid girl, you gotta move on or simply call her out on her behavior when the time comes. I’d suggest moving on as there really is nothing to gain here.

 

[Upstart]

This man will soon be getting more puss than he knows what to do with.
Pray for him.


Nothing much going on today, just arranged a second date with the girl I met yesterday. She's down to meet up Saturday. I hope I can take this all the way by the 3rd date, but we'll see.

I got 3 other girls hitting me up on the apps.

For okcupid girl, you gotta move on or simply call her out on her behavior when the time comes. I’d suggest moving on as there really is nothing to gain here.

You're right, man. I'm gonna send one last call out text just to take it as far as I can, then let it go.
Something like, "Hey, if you're not into this, lmk so I can stop trying."

Got that from Playing with Fire.

The last 74 days of this 90-day period has been a time of complete inner change and growth. My thoughts skew neutral to negative by default, so everyday I change my entire thought pattern to favorable thoughts.
It all starts there.

TWICE I've had a bad dating experience followed by a good experience the very next day, simply because my thoughts refuse to give in.

I can turn bad days into decent days simply by the power of thought.

 

[Upstart]

ON TO THE NEXT!​

This was the last text exchange between me and Okcupid girl.


Persistence game works well enough, but there are cases when it doesn't.
There are outside factors that make it work far better if you know what you're doing.

She said my persistence is sexy though, so I'll take that.
But for girls, being wanted is sexy.
For guys, SEX is sexy.


In video game terms, I came across a high-level dungeon boss just outside of my skill range.

I mean, I'm using my best attacks and strongest armor and it's still not enough.
The game just started, the boss cooked me and now I have to work my way back from the lower levels to get strong enough to beat this boss and surpass it.

Kinda like GOD OF WAR 2, if I recall.

Here's proof I'm at least an intermediate level texter lol.



I took this Playing With Fire text quiz and it seems my skills are about what I thought.

I wonder if it's alright to show photos of these girls online or nah.

In other news, I have a high interest girl from BLK dating, it seems like I can reliably get a date from a new girl each week if I stay consistent.

And I just got a number from Hinge, a latina who's down to meet up on Monday.

So I'm in a position where I'm doing far better than last year and 2022, but I'm still in a precarious spot, because I don't want to make easy mistakes and fumble the ball before I get laid with one of them.
I gotta be on high alert at all times lol.

I find that the effect of having sex makes you give yourself more permission to be who you actually are versus what you think you need to be to get pussy.

But I can't really manufacture that effect without going through this process.

 

[Bman]

Persistence game works well enough, but there are cases when it doesn't.

I think it's great to practice being persistent a few times, just to learn it and be able to do it if you want.

However, in my experience, it's really not worth because most times you waste energy trying to get a girl out who just really is not that into you.

If you do happen to get her out, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle on the date. If you do happen to pull and get her home, you're more likely to have LMR. If you happen to have sex with her, you're more likely to have trouble getting her over again and again or she just ghosts.

You may have won the battle, but you lost the war. Persistentance like this is short term thinking. Long term you're setting a frame that you will always put in this effort to get her attention. That will get old fast.

Yes there is chance you could completely change her mind and make her really attracted to you, in which case all subsequent interactions would be easier. But I dont think its likely.

In my opinion, chasing is death.

My general rule of thumb is to attempt to push back once after she initially says no/cancels/goes silent and get her out. If she still says no, then I move on. I've got other girls who are interested to tend to.

 

[Upstart]

LAY REPORT: Sat, Feb. 15th, 2025​

For real this time, nigga.


He won.

I had to rush home this morning to write down everything I could remember about our interaction, because all of it was very useful.

THE DATE​

I proposed the meetup at a bookstore, then we went to whole foods to grab some snacks. We sat on a patio area on top.

I hadn't jerked off for at least 4 days so I was ready to make something happen.

"Can I kiss you?" I said.
I could see she was ready for it, so I cut the chitchat and just asked. I did it like Andy suggested.
We kissed.

After that, we were both rushing to get back to her place. She basically invited me back. I didn't have to push for it. She bought some blueberries.

"Do you want to try some tonight?"

I knew what she meant.
Say less.

BACK AT HER PLACE​

She made it to her apartment before me and even changed into a dress before I got there.
We watched Severance to pass time, I was barely paying attention. Very internally nervous, just trying to escalate in a cool manner. It was hard to tell how experienced she was by her demeanor on these dates.

WE MOVE TO THE BEDROOM​

I made sure to check in with her, telling her we don't need to do anything she's not down for.
She said she was more than ready.
We asked about each others sexual histories.
Both clean with proof, just in case.

Honestly, I thought she was a "nice christian girl", but she said her last sexual experience was 3 weeks ago and she just broke up from her ex less than a few months ago.

"I will be ghosting you."​

My performance was lackluster, tbh. Dick kept going soft and hard, but it was my first time in over two years.

She said "you get one more chance, but if you can't do better by next time, I will be ghosting you."

Bitch, I already clapped. I don't need to see you again.
BUT I do want retain her, at least until I get other options.

I did feel an instant disconnect, though. It's hard to please someone who doesn't do much herself in bed.
She don't even suck good dick!

I told her, "It's good that you've got me while I'm still nice."

She's also non-commital which is ideal. Not looking for a relationship or anything deep.
She doesn't want kids, is averse to pain. Just had a break up. Got an abortion in 2020.

IMPORTANT COMPLIMENTS​

She said she likes my hands. How strong they look. How my nails aren't dirty.
I never thought about that as an attraction point.

She said my balls are big, which is not something I've ever heard or would even notice about myself lol.

I was just happy to be there.

After Sex​

I basically told her the truth that it was my first time in two years. It felt good to be honest.
I had to wipe period blood off my dick tho.
Good thing I had 4 condoms on me. 2 in my wallet, 2 in my backpack.
I came strapped, but I need to replenish those.

The rest of the night, I didn't feel that sexual or like touching her much because of the ghosting comment. Having that much pressure didn't make me feel like trying again.

We went to get pluckers and listened to music while eating. I drew a picture of her blueberries in a sketchbook she had lying around. I spent the night.

THE MORNING AFTER​

The turning point came when she told me exactly what she likes in bed.

She said she liked being grabbed hard, spanked, pulled and pushed around. She wanted to feel like the most beautiful girl in the world in the bedroom. She wanted every crease and crevice of her licked.

She even showed me what kinda porn she likes.

All of these were clues.
I immediately understood the assignment.

I complemented her belly which turned her on because she said she was really self conscious about it.

I started playing with her ass and spanking her ham hocks.

I could tell she really liked it when I pulled her against my groin with force.

Pretty soon, I was licking her titties & grinding her with my hard ass dick through my underwear.

I realized I'm really out of touch with what I like in bed or about girls in general.
But her wearing a dress really turned me on. Licking all up and down her body while she put her dress over my head really turned me on.

I gave her the attention she was looking for. I forced myself to stop because she had to go to church and I told her I'd keep her all day if I kept going.

I know she liked that comment

I licked her all over.
Then she went to church without showering.

Jesus.

She said she really liked what we did in the morning and can't wait for round 2.
Sent me hella porn vids in preparation.

AFTER THOUGHTS​

I'm just happy I finally beat this slump.

But my greatest prize from this experience?
These two NANA books I bought at the bookstore.
I fucking love this series.



Weird thing is, I don't feel much different.

I didn't get much of an aura boost. I still feel the same as yesterday, just a little more confident.

I busted my slump, but I don't feel any more or less confident about cold-approaching.
I should try just to see. Maybe I still have to process this.

77 days into my 90 day challenge. I made it!

I think it's great to practice being persistent a few times, just to learn it and be able to do it if you want.

However, in my experience, it's really not worth because most times you waste energy trying to get a girl out who just really is not that into you.

Up until today, I had to be in "Do whatever it takes to get laid" mode. I'll probably still need persistence to some extent, but I think I can pull back on it a little.

 

[Zug]

However, in my experience, it's really not worth because most times you waste energy trying to get a girl out who just really is not that into you.

I'm in total agreement with Bman on this. I know from reading other's reports that persistence game can and does work for some. However, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Why are you chasing women who don't want you. This isn't behavior you want to practice and make part of your identity. These are not healthy life practices. Relationships where the woman has higher value to you than you do to her are not healthy. I'm totally willing to admit that it may be unavoidable in the short-term for many men when they are learning their way. If you need to do it to get your foot in the door and get some experience under your belt, fine. Don't make this a life practice.

Chasing is death. Everyone has the right to go whenever they fucking want. Never, ever let yourself physically or psychologically try to block a mate from leaving or chase after them. There's never a situation where you need to finish making some stupid point so fucking badly you need to block the door, and there's never a situation where you should be spending weeks pursuing a woman who doesn't want you. You don't want these relationships, even when they work, they don't work.

 

[Zug]

I proposed the meetup at a bookstore, then we went to whole foods to grab some snacks. We sat on a patio area on top.

I hadn't jerked off for at least 4 days so I was ready to make something happen.

"Can I kiss you?" I said.
I could see she was ready for it, so I cut the chitchat and just asked. I did it like Andy suggested.
We kissed.

Asking is the worst form of consent. I'm not anti-consent, but asking for consent outside of super specific BDSM practices is autistic romance.

You can get extremely close to her and have your lips a quarter inch away then pull back slightly, you can gently grab the back of her head and pull her closer then stop, you can wait till she asks you a question, fail to respond, just sit in the silence until its unbearable, then keep eye contact while you slowly move in.

She WILL give or not give signs of consent. Its not that hard to read. She'll open up her lips, or turn her head slightly away to break the kiss angle, or pull back, or come forward to chase your lips, or say something in surprise to stop you, or a million other things.

Getting consent is your responsibility. Getting the type of consent where you can escalate without feeling guilty is NOT HER JOB. Its not her job to make you less fearful, or to pardon your guilty feelings about making a move. Your fears are your problem, not hers. Asking for consent like this is fine as a short-term strategy to get some experience under your belt, that's it.

Take some pride in becoming a good lover, you'll need it to continue pushing yourself to try scarier and scarier things. That effort is worth it, because at some point you'll actually have to communicate what your deepest, darkest, and most shameful sexual fantasies are to her if you ever want to achieve them. That level of courage and vulnerability takes A LOT, and I mean A LOT of work.

Think about how different training yourself to do this is vs training yourself to be incessantly persistent is. Imagine you cloned yourself and one of you practiced each. Which version of you would you prefer at 3 months? This isn't just about getting laid or learning game, this is about becoming the man you actually want to be.

 

[Upstart]

Take some pride in becoming a good lover, you'll need it to continue pushing yourself to try scarier and scarier things. That effort is worth it, because at some point you'll actually have to communicate what your deepest, darkest, and most shameful sexual fantasies are to her if you ever want to achieve them. That level of courage and vulnerability takes A LOT, and I mean A LOT of work.

Think about how different training yourself to do this is vs training yourself to be incessantly persistent is. Imagine you cloned yourself and one of you practiced each. Which version of you would you prefer at 3 months? This isn't just about getting laid or learning game, this is about becoming the man you actually want to be.

I like that last idea of training myself into the man I want to become over time (sexually).

I don't think revealing my deepest fantasies would be super difficult. Even my most depraved fantasies are pretty vanilla tbh. Maybe I'm not really in touch with that side of myself yet.

A couple of stats for context:

• This is the first girl I've slept with in over 2 years.
• 3rd girl ever.

I'm doing most of these habits out of desperation & ignorance.
I may as well be autistic when it comes to this stuff.

I'm pretty sure most of these behaviors will shed themselves over time, but you and Bman's comments have made sure it won't become a habit .

IN OTHER NEWS...​

This bih really done sent me a full catalogue of her favorite porno. I took a look at some, and I'm thinking 2 things:

1. Gott DAYUM.
2. This is a gold mine.

She basically sent me the cheat codes to fuck her properly.

All I had before, were these dorky youtube videos about how to thrust correctly.
I rarely watch any porn where a guy is railing a chick, so I don't really know what to do during sex.

But now I have a foothold.
Every girl has taught me one new thing I could take away and use for the next.

And all future girls should thank this one for what I'm going to do to them

 

[Squilliam]

And all future girls should thank this one for what I'm going to do to them

Hell yeah man. One of my worst lays showed me how to finger properly, and it ended up being a very helpful lesson.

 

[kratjeuh]

Cool flex but share the links with us too brother haha

Congrats on the lay!

 

[Zug]

If you want some technical discussion with examples what good sex looks like in terms of physics, you can look at TheStrokeGenius.

Good sex isn't physical though, its psychological. Dirty talk is more valuable than any amount of technique, as is learning how to dominate.

 

[Upstart]

Playing with "Selective Focus" on my Samsung Galaxy S8 Camera.​

I want to switch to an iPhone, but I gotta earn the money for it.

I've cleared my old photos to make space for some new practice shots.

I would really like to hire a photographer for at LEAST 2-3 pics for my profile, but I can't afford it right now.
I'll have to do this on my own until I can drop $2-300 on new photos without sweating it.

Money is such a cheat code for dating if you know where to use it.

Luckily, if I can shoot and edit a photo as good as my profile pic (with my okayish phone), I can do it again.

I've been studying sex all week.​

I'm currently looking at both Andy and GLL's guide to overcoming performance anxiety. I know this problem is more of a psychological thing. When I'm relaxed and patient I can perform really well. So we'll see how the next meet with this girl goes. We're scheduled for Friday, she's excited to meet up and cook for me. I'm staying the night.

I'm also trying to set up dates with a couple other women on the apps.

Cool flex but share the links with us too brother haha

Congrats on the lay!

Lol thanks man. Honestly it was just a bunch of porn clips like this from Xcouples on Twitter/X:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1715859042080358846

This might not apply to most women or guys, but I dunno for sure. I just noted the position of the woman's legs. It was the same in multiple vids. Maybe that's just how this girl specifically likes it.

If you want some technical discussion with examples what good sex looks like in terms of physics, you can look at TheStrokeGenius.

Good sex isn't physical though, its psychological. Dirty talk is more valuable than any amount of technique, as is learning how to dominate.

I swear to god, I just found him on Sunday! Just wish his stuff wasn't behind Onlyfans. It might be the only one I'd be willing to pay for.

But I wish I didn't have to...

 

[Upstart]

I understand it now.​

Profile Photos:
@Zug mentioned good dating photos are like telling a story.

Here's a potential story my photos can tell:

"Here's Ken...." swipe

"He'll take you out skateboarding with his shirt off and strong muscles." swipe

"He's great with animals including yours" Swipe

"He'll go out to cool spots with you" swipe

He can protect you because he boxes" swipe

He cleans up very nicely, dresses sharp." swipe

He hangs out with dope people." swipe

and if you're feeling risky, he might take you out on his motorcycle ... before YOU ride Him."

Swipe right if you want to experience this guy!

A good profile is like a trailer preview of YOU.​

Compare to my current profile:
Here's Ken.
He dresses nice. He has cool glasses. He's good with animals. He goes to the gym. He rides a motorcyle. Interested?
Maybe?
Okay...

I have to do a lot more work in texting because my profile is "just okay"

My pics should be inviting the girl into my world.
Allowing her to picture herself with me.

Or maybe I'm just over thinking it.