colgate - FINALLY!!! i get my first daygame lay!!! after 3 years!!!

[Self Improver]

Dude I got it and I found it funny d/w hahah

 

[Self Improver]

Focus of daygame is not to be bought food.

People buying you things is an excellent sign that you're doing well, but not an outright goal.

omfgggggg what was the point of even putting the disclaimer at the top of my log when u guys didnt even read it. also even if i didn't put it, should have come off as an obvious joke anyway, but it's like u didnt even read it omg.

Title of this post is a huge jk before anyone says I'm going off course. I'm aware.

Shit man Colgate not happy when the bros miss fine details!!

Hahah

 

[Vice]

omfgggggg what was the point of even putting the disclaimer at the top of my log when u guys didnt even read it. also even if i didn't put it, should have come off as an obvious joke anyway, but it's like u didnt even read it omg.

I'll be frank with you: because not all users on this forum are reading every single post every member makes. If you make a headline that isn't consistent with reality, don't be surprised when someone engages with that headline. I'm truly not interested in the minute details of your life, and that's coming from my own understanding that my own log isn't going to be read carefully either. My own headlines are aimed to be "clickbaity" and engaging, yet still in line with what content I'm writing about.

 

[Adrizzle]

instadates and instadate pulls was seeing a guy in SF actually instadate+pull+smash 2 or 3 times

You should think about if you wanna based you whole strategy around what 1 person has done two or three times. I know Voldy is about the Insta date too. But different things are going to work for different people. How long have been grinding at this insta date outcome for now?

I don’t think these return on your approaches are the best use of your time. I don’t know your lifestyle but your spending 5 hours every weekend doing this. You can have gone to a yoga class or dance or whatever. Building and interesting lifestyle and do 1/2 as much approaching.

I think the framework is good though you understand moving girls etc. The Insta date to fuck is such a Hail Mary thing brah. Even if some girls are into you they don’t fuck on the first meet because they feel like a slut or arnt wearing the right underwear or whatever stupid shit. If your still keen on it. I know alcohol will help.

whenever i sit across from a girl and lock eyes with her, she starts investing in the interaction because basically she wants to alleviate the tension from me just gazing at her dead in the irises.

Do you thing she is investing in the interaction for positive reasons? I hated doing exams but I was always very invested in them.

Change it up a bit. I think you need to seed more of what you actually want to do. “Do you like bubble tea” is generic. Have you tired being more forward. Hey let’s get a coffee cos I wanna talk to you some more. Also having a false time constraint would be useful. People get very nervous when they don’t know when something will end. And that is an innate thing and also like they might have shit on.

 

[colgate / bulldog]

You should think about if you wanna based you whole strategy around what 1 person has done two or three times. I know Voldy is about the Insta date too. But different things are going to work for different people. How long have been grinding at this insta date outcome for now?

That guy did it in like a month, and then stopped posting in the chat because he was getting crap for doing it with "low volume" and also using apps loooool.

I didn't start approaching at this mall specifically with the desired outcome of "i want to smash from an instadate". Not by any means. I just observed over a period of a few weeks doing 150-250 approaches a week that I'm only getting a regular date every other week or so, but I'm getting 5-8 instadates a week. And I ended up bringing the one chick back from an instadate 2 weeks ago, and we kind of fooled around. And I'm noticing by tweaking more things here and there I'm running into certain scenarios I've not run into before. It's kind of this patience thing I guess.

I don’t think these return on your approaches are the best use of your time

Actually I have some plans over the next few weeks, but in true colgate fashion, I'm not revealing them ahead of time since I like to make this log about what I've *done*. But I can tell you this log will look less insane in a month or so.

“Do you like bubble tea” is generic. Have you tired being more forward. Hey let’s get a coffee cos I wanna talk to you some more.

i think I actually do more of the latter but I'll make it a point to always do it

 

[colgate / bulldog]

Very brutal week for me. Not in terms of actual approaching, but rather I think I've gone into a state of depression. I have future plans set up but as you know, I don't like revealing "what I'm going to do" on my log until I actually do it.

All I will say regarding future plans is the following (since I've already confirmed them, and it's just logistics):
- Permanently leaving California March 21
- Taking a gamecation to Chicago and Iowa March 22-27 with the same crew I met in Phoenix
- Moving back to Nashville the week of March 28, this time with Troy and lacroix (reuniting my Austin crew lol)

I originally had some long multi-section thing breaking down my motivations, plans, and goals for going back to Nashville, but I decided not to include it in this log. Let's actually reach Nashville first, settle down, actually do them, and then talk about it in the log.

I'll say that Nashville is going to be far more conducive to my main goal of getting laid, and I'm going to be shifting my focus away from daygame now, and more towards elite body, nightgame, and combat sports (for masculinity).

Daygame
I'm going to write a long post about my current feelings and thoughts just to accurately capture my mental state and keep the log real.

I've done roughly ~50 approaches this whole week, which is pretty trash volume from me compared to what I normally do.

instadates
Had some fun instadate on Monday on campus where the girl was initially deadpan when I approached. Literally just called her out on it like "that's a very deadpan reaction" and then she started giggling and became super bubbly. Went for instadate even though she said she had class in 10 minutes and told her to skip it and she agreed. Convo was very fun and I kept teasing her that she had this evil plan to be cute so some gullible guy like me would go up to her and buy her bubble tea. Then we got to the bubble tea shop, and we were about to sit down, and she was like "oh I need to go to class". idk why but i decided to push 0 times and instead gave this sarcastic sigh to play into the joke that she tricked me into buying her free bubble tea. I pitched plans to go bowling later in the week, and then we exchanged. and then she ghosted. so me getting her free bubble tea wasn't a joke lol. why do i keep fucking up random shit like this omfg i literally didnt even ask her to chill with me instead of going to class, not a single time (even tho in the past i've done the total opposite).

Had another instadate that same evening evening which started off great, and we were trying out perfume together in a department store and the clerk thought we were actually a couple. She wanted to share noodles with me at the restaurant we decided to go to (I pitched eating dinner with her because I actually wanted to eat dinner, and she happened to be thinking about it as well). We split the bill. But ultimately I screwed up in a few ways:
- I let her drive us to the restaurant. She even asked me who should drive. This is probably dumb and maybe irrelevant, but I just was like "well I guess your car is closer". I think I was in this weird phase where I felt bad for being too aggressive and "trancing" girls to do what I wanted to no avail, and overshot in the other direction now with "oh I'll give the girl more agency or whatever".
- she started using her phone a bunch while we were at the restaurant. only lightly hinted at like "oh u got a lot of emails this late huh?" instead of being more stern about her using her phone. vibe pretty much went from fun and flirty to boring and platonic real fast
Anyway, she drove me to the parking garage where I parked, but refused to drive up to my car (which was on the 3rd floor). I went for a hail mary kiss in her car which she deflected, and said she was "busy the whole week" so couldn't meet again.

i feel like maybe it's because i'm just getting conflicting advice from all over the place and it's clouding my intuition. i just need to be focused on what i want instead of "trying to go with the flow and taking the girl's plans into consideration over mine."

some final straws to break the camel's back
Also had this approach earlier in the day with some SUPER HOT GIRL that went like this: https://www.sndup.net/zxvm/

It's not "great performance" from me. But she was hyper bubbly and giggly, and I also actually twirled her around at 1:03. I grabbed her contact since she was off to meet a friend.

Then she ghosted.

And then I saw her walking around the next day with friends.

Girls acting "ecstatic" about my approach and then ghosting/not coming through is basically standard for me. I've talked about it before on my log. However, for some reason this one really burned me. I couldn't stop thinking about this chick.

Additionally, I went on a date with a Japanese girl 2 weeks ago and brought her to my place and cuddled (deflected the makeout). Then I invited her over for dinner, and she was like "can I bring a coworker?" Decided to say, "I want you to come alone ", she replies with "I want to just be friends, so let's not".

And then I did another approach on Tuesday on a chick with a HUGE ASS that I was aroused over so much, I literally couldn't stop thinking about her on other approaches and kind of blew a bunch. Later, I got a picture of an old lady in third person when I texted her.

I know the first thought many people might have upon reading this is just going to be something like "well this is standard bro, it happens to all of us. you just gotta keep going man". And even me from a month ago would comment the same thing.

But I've been spending an inordinate amount of effort for very little (maybe 150-250 approaches a week, 5-10 instadates, but maybe a "regular" date every 2-3 weeks from a contact). And the "regular" dates or responsive contacts I do get seem to always be some weird exceptions because I can't seem to filter for what I want. e.g. the date is somehow arranged so that she conveniently meets her friends <1 hour after the date, or she'll say how she's always busy but wants to just keep texting me (which I usually end up being the one who quits responding).

It's why I've been honing in so much with instadates, but I go into those with the reference experience that I'm never going to see the girl again (I've never had an instadate meet up with me for a second date, and maybe 3-5 times total has an instadate not ghosted me over text), so I basically have to try to pull her. And then let's just say I did hook up with her, or even if we actually fooled around and had fun (like the Asian barbie), I'm pretty sure I'd get ghosted after that too, based on my current experience. It's just not sustainable.

I've also noticed the huge disparity in results between my wing K here and me, so I know it's just me. I think he probably does 20-30 approaches a week and has this rotation of 2 girls giving him head (since we've met) and fooling around with him (no lays, but still) (combined with his gf whom he also met from this mall a while back). I've talked with him and tried to copy some of what he does occasionally, but to nearly no avail (he also does instadates and tries to pull, but usually ends up still getting second+third+ dates where he does pull and fool around).

downward spiral
I did ~20 approaches on both Monday and Tuesday as standard maintenance, but spiraled into doing 3 and 6 over the past two days over multiple hours, respectively.

I received the friendzone text from the Japanese girl on Tuesday evening, which put me in a really bad spiral, taking into consideration all the other girls. Yeah I know my following reaction over the subsequent days is overblown, but it is what it is.

On Thursday I went to the mall and was already distraught. I pretty much had to force myself.

I think the 2nd girl I tried to approach was a total blowout. I refused to let it happen and told her hey, hold on, wait. And then I just shouted "STOP". She retorted "I don't want to talk to you!" and I snapped "fuck off!!" at her. I don't think I'd been this pissed off at a girl since early February.

I had maybe 1 or 2 approaches out of 9 over the past 2 days that was some convo, but ultimately led nowhere. I just felt mechanical and hopeless.

the real approach anxiety program
Additionally, I've actually been pissed off at everyone I see with "mad approach anxiety". Not going to name names. But it's essentially I'm mad at them because I know they would kill it, or have already killed it, and somehow still don't approach girls anyway, while complaining or trying to "figure out how to deal with the anxiety". Here's the real "approach anxiety program".

1. Put yourself on the front lines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYgGA7ucw00
2. Approach
2a. If you can't approach, sit down and pull out your notepad, and write down every dark thought and reason for why you can't approach, or why you can't do a certain thing. Break yourself down. Destroy yourself. Drill all the way down to your deepest insecurities. Whatever it takes.
2b. Then just approach anyway.

I invite everyone to try this. It's much quicker and far more effective than doing a 46+ day "program" just to call some girls cute and get their number.

Here's how it panned out for me: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19551#p19551.

And MakingAComeback did it too: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=26923#p26923

I promise you if you actually try to face your deep insecurities and issues when you try to get over approach anxiety instead of doing a program, you'll be able to dig yourself out and actually approach, and probably most likely actually get laid. You'll additionally reveal to yourself what changes you need to make in your life.

I think any other way is just letting you avoid and dance around your real issues. And it's not even more efficient.

Anyway, I mention all that because it's part of my own frustrations and will partially explain the below writings. I'm putting all of it and as much of it as I can public because I want everyone else to see that I still have so much emotional shit to go through and work out. But it's not an excuse to sit around and not also take action. Use action as your therapy.

I wrote a bunch of stuff on my phone while at the mall on Thursday and Friday. I'll share some of it. Most of it is pretty dark:


behavior devolution
I've become very small and nervous when I approach a girl.
It's like I'm back in Chattanooga.
Except the excitement and novelty of just going up to a girl and saying hi is waning.

It's not that I'm scared she'll reject me.
It's that no matter how I come off they *all* reject me.
I come off as confident and assured, they get scared.
I come off as calm and cool, it's actually awkward.
It's easy to handle rejection and power through when you get some outcomes.
You can say rejection builds confidence when you have outcomes interspersed between the rejections.

But when you're continually let down, when you feel only you are continually let down, it's like what's the point of saying hi in the first place.

Of course when I force myself, I myself feel awkward. It's like I'm doing the girl a disservice by approaching her. She's so attractive that I'm just this nervous babbling mess who can't keep it together. She didn't ask or deserve that.

An attractive woman deserves at the *bare minimum* a confident man who will lead her, regardless of what she's trying to do. She needs a man who can fit her inside the frame he's built. And the frame is sturdy and safe for her.



I'm doing a disservice to attractive girls
Yeah, the girl is attractive and stunning but what about you?
Are you a guy who can provide something of value to the girl?

If not, you're just doing her a disservice.
You're just a moment of spam in her life.

It's all about take take take for you.
Take something from the world.

You're not giving anything of value.
Every other guy has something they can provide to the girl.

Strength, confidence, fun, skills.

You're searching for what you can provide to girls.
You don't know what it is.
It's all about trying to appease her and mold to what she maybe wants.

At least beta cuck guys are willing to be a doormat for the girl
At least guys with low standards are willing to validate unattractive girls for their own pleasure.
At least most other guys are willing to settle with the girl and have no other options for the rest of his life.

Every time you validate a girl, you're just letting her know that she'll have you as a contingency plan.
That's why she wants to be your friend. You'll be there for her just in case.



I'm not eligible to talk to girls
View attachment 1
I've been thrown into a cage whilst I see everyone else harvest the fruits of the summer. But maybe the truth was that I was deluding myself into thinking I too was free, I too was able to harvest. Perhaps I've been in the cage this whole time, blissfully unaware. But maybe it took trying to harvest with no avail to realize I was caged in the first place.

---

Why am I not eligible to talk to girls.
A. my mind is lazy. it defaults to being comfortable as much as possible instead of constructive.
B. my decision making is terrible, often i impulsively decide something and it ends up hurting myself or others
C. my body is inferior. it's small, weak, and unskilled. i wouldn't be able to protect others, let alone myself
D. i don't have anything interesting to bring to the table. everything i enjoy is extremely male-centric and/or niche. no one finds it interesting, and the hobbies themselves are introverted and isolating
- that's why I latch onto Japanese so much. it's the one thing I can do that at least gets me in the door with socializing and feeling confident/natural. but it doesn't hold up because it's surface level and falls apart the moment I realize I have nothing else to offer than simply the ability to communicate in another language.
E. I'm not good at anything, especially not anything useful. i have some rudimentary ability in certain niche skills, but nothing of use to others or the world.
F. I don't care about other people's feelings, especially not girls'. Only my own.

---

People will tell you the rejection isn't about you. It's not false. Girls have a state regardless of who the guy is.

But that doesn't mean the girls in a positive state are going to unilaterally accept you, no matter what you do. You can't absolve the responsibility off of yourself.

In my case, each rejection has had a 0.1% tinge of "well she rejected me because of who *I* actually am. there's so many things wrong with me that I could have spent the time to fix and handle, but I didn't. instead I decided that these flaws weren't that bad and approached anyway. but what I didn't realize is that, no, they actually are glaring flaws. I can't get away with this"

The result is that even when you do get the occasional girl who decides to meet up, she just wants to be friends, she just expects you to be a guy who takes it slow, she just expects you to cater to her. It's a mismatch with what you actually want. And somehow you have the entitlement and audacity to reject it anyway, even though you don't really have any other options. It's like you're trying to be a playa when you can't even be a beta.

The process you have gone through isn't useless though. To many, and maybe even yourself it might seem that way. The reality is that it's the most important process you've ever gone through. You've put yourself out there to over 2500 girls, day and night. You deeply understand, without refute, your current placement in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not okay with who I am. I want to completely destroy it and rebuild it from scratch. The only glimmer of hope I have in life is the belief that this is possible. Otherwise, the current values programmed into me have set me up for misery, malaise, and meaninglessness. There's no use for my current existence and it's either change it or die.

--- (i have another section in this but it's more about just talking about different ideas and things i'm doing to handle the "reasons" i made up above)

 

[Jacobpalmer123]

Dam quite the read. I think Hollow said the biggest difference for nighttime results for him was gaining 20 pounds of muscle. Probably not natty. But I think as you gain muscle your results will improve. Also the bigger the city the lower the close rates.

But it's good to take responsibility for the responses. I wish I approached as much as you do. Just means it's time to move out of my sexless town. I've noticed in myself I'll be approaching and then hit a mental block. Then approach and hit another. It's just a bunch of mountains and then there's another and then you look back and see how far you've come. David Goggins helped a lot with that for me, the mental aspect.

I know the major hotties, give you a number then ghost. It's never easy. It's almost like this false hope given, then taken.

Just remember though. You only have 30 seconds to 5 minutes to look good. Conversely you just look good for 30 seconds to 5 minutes. You're issues your demons they can wait, you'll handle them as you do other stuff.

But there is that famous quote "Its not until you've lost everything that your free to be anything" -Tyler Durden

 

[Adrizzle]

Also had this approach earlier in the day with some SUPER HOT GIRL that went like this: https://www.sndup.net/zxvm/

I listened to this. First things is this girl sounds super into you and receptive, she also sounds super hot. There’s a lot you did well man. But there’s a big thing here and you actually answer it.

D. i don't have anything interesting to bring to the table. everything i enjoy is extremely male-centric and/or niche. no one finds it interesting, and the hobbies themselves are introverted and isolating

You open like a ballsy motherfucker and what I feel is like you didn’t show or explain why your ballsy. I know if your 8/10 looks wise and open like that you’d be fine. The other option is to tell the girl why you are confident/what you bring.

I don’t actually think you don’t bring anything interesting to the table. (You just think that) but from that recording that girl had no reason to think you bring anything to the table either. Listen to the audio. She doesn’t know anything about you. Anything. Of course she’s going to ghost. You need to write down and figure out a cool way to tell girls what you do for a living and maybe you need to build some hobbies. That girl said she was going to dance class. You could have asked her about her hobbies more and then you say oh yeah I’m really into boxing/yoga/ whatever. You showing what you bring to the table.

Thanks for posting that approach anxiety thing. I will 100% take it as shots fired at me and in the best way possible. I have been a pussy. Tell you what, seeing you out there grinding in very motivating.

GL cunt you’ll be fine

 

[Squilliam]

Not going to name names.

I have a strong feeling I am one of these "names", lol.

I know for a fact that if I tried, I'd be somewhat successful. Yet I still can't seem to bring myself to doing it. I'm gonna give your steps some consideration.

 

[colgate / bulldog]

Self-loathing is the belief that you hate yourself. People whose default state is self-loathing often believe that they deserve to be treated poorly, and that they're entitled to failure.

A common justification for self-loathing is that you are bad at everything you try, or even the worst at everything you do. You feel useless to society and to the world at your core.

Of course, people don't come into this world hating themselves. It's a belief that is learned over time.

In a vacuum, you might have a certain fitness level, a certain skill level, a certain height. It just is.

We could say you would just perceive yourself as "normal", though that's not exactly precise since there's nothing to compare you to. But regardless, you're not "the worst" or "the best" when there's just a single data point. We could say that this is your baseline.

But when you start socializing, this is where you inevitably start comparing yourself to others in the social circle. And for a certain type of person, this is where it can all go wrong.

You'll observe your baseline compared to everyone else's.

You'll observe many areas where you are in the bottom percentile, and hyper focus in your placement at the bottom in those areas.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that you lose sight of the things you are good at, and the things you are average at.

You conveniently ignore the areas in which you're good at, and the areas where you're average.

You could even list your accomplishments.

But you cringe at the idea.

And even when you do it, you look at what you wrote, and it's embarrassing.

The toxic cycle is you look at anything you're maybe good at, and you're ashamed of it. You're always thinking "but I'm absolutely terrible at this other thing". Your default behavior is to invalidate any positive trait you do have, any accomplishment you've done with things like "Oh, well you're supposed to be this way" "Oh, it was no big deal, I didn't even try" (even if you did try, and really busted your ass).

And when people do compliment you, you perceive it as smothering and consolation. Often unilaterally.

Where does all this negativity and defeatism come from? Where does the aversion to external positive feedback about yourself come from?

It comes from a place of hidden narcissism.

You tell yourself by soft-rejecting the positive feedback, you're staying humble, and it lets you feel satisfied with that. Yes, rather than feeling happy about receiving a genuine compliment, you feel happy about how "humbly" you reacted to the comment. Ironically, you're actually inflating your ego about how "humble" you are now, and lose sight of the actual trait or accomplishment you were complimented on in the first place.

And it's a more sinister narcissism than classical narcissism.

With classical narcissism, your delusion is that you are always absolutely the best at everything, and you are entitled to the best. At least this can potentially result in a path where when you seek nothing but excellence.

With self-loathing narcissism, your delusion is that you are always absolutely the WORST at everything, and you are "entitled" to the worst. It's still narcissism, because you're still overly preoccupied with yourself.

Now you've set the frame for your actions and decisions towards the path of failure.

Outwardly, you might be taking action, working on a skill, doing something to improve yourself. And you'll see a level of results just from the raw effort. But there's always this looming and latent sense of "whatever I'm doing right now, this is going to end up in failure, I'm not going to succeed this time. I don't deserve what positive outcome could potentially happen out of this."

Believing that you don't deserve the positive outcome, that you're destined for failure, results in making many real-time decisions and emitting micro-level behaviors which seem to sabotage your goals and progress. Even if on a macro-level you strive for excellence and success, if you haven't sorted out root-level self-loathing beliefs, self-sabotaging behaviors will jump up out of nowhere, and cruelly derail whatever you've been ardently working on. None of these decisions are conscious and deliberate acts to destroy what you've been building up, but rather they are subconscious, and you're left in befuddlement after you've made the self-sabotaging decision. "How did I fuck that up???" It happens enough times, and you start thinking, "Why do I always fuck this shit up???"

Such self-sabotaging decisions will jump up specifically during the most critical moments. Since you have no latency time to process and plan a decision, all you have is your deep-rooted baseline beliefs, and they will take over, since it requires less mental energy to go off of natural and strongly reinforced beliefs to guide decisions, rather than newer ideologies and beliefs. In this case, the baseline beliefs are self-loathing and defeatism, and they will override more novel positive beliefs and mindsets you may have.

And you'll see this pattern repeat many times. At first, you'll constantly wonder in frustration why you can't make the right decision when it counts. If it happens enough, you'll end up accepting it as normal. A band-aid solution to this is to constantly plan, constantly try to understand all outcomes as much as possible, constantly try to eliminate as much uncertainty as possible. While this planning can yield some results, ultimately you can never plan for absolutely every possible scenario, and faced with a novel scenario, you'll fall back to sabotaging yourself, yet again.

Additional positive reference experience can recalibrate and snowball into making better realtime decisions over time, because you'll just be seeing patterns and defaulting into them without thinking about it. But, this doesn't solve the base problem of making self-sabotaging decisions in the micro-level, because the skill you've gained simply was just positive reinforcement from emitting correct patterns in a certain skill.

For example, you could eventually get good at speaking in a foreign language because over time, from receiving positive reinforcement from others understanding what you are saying, your brain will map those speech patterns for when you want to express a similar idea again in the future. And perhaps the confidence gained from proficiency in a foreign language will motivate you into learning how to play the guitar.

But if you have deep self-loathing beliefs, in the moment of trying to e.g. practice a difficult riff, you will likely require more iterations of trial and error, because many of the attempts will fail due to you defaulting to "I'm going to fuck this up and fail" in the microseconds you have to decide how to change your hand shape to continue playing the riff.

In other words, the confidence gained from language proficiency was only at a macro-level, where you recognized you could grind hard enough to master one skill, and you decided you could learn additional skills. But just knowing the specific patterns of speaking a foreign language won't help you with the specific patterns of playing guitar riffs. You've never figured out how to better handle general realtime micro-level decision making, and you default to "I'm going to fail".

In the future, I'll write about how self-loathing pollutes your micro-level lifestyle choices, even if you have macro-level lifestyle goals that are sound.

I'm also still at a stage where I embody self-loathing, so I will need to personally figure out how to overcome that. Before my final approach session in California, I wrote down positive traits about myself, and wrote inverted, positive versions of some of the dark pieces I've written previously in this log. As I said in this essay, I cringed at a lot of it (that in itself was one of my motivations to write this piece). I ended up only doing ~15 approaches and calling it, but I only got one girl who outright ignored me, because I think I walked into nearly every approach with the mindset that I'm attractive and I deserve these girls. It was temporary, but I think repeated iterations of doing things like gratitude journaling and writing positive things about not only myself, but the girls I want to interact with will maybe help me out with self-loathing beliefs.

^ lol I'm still at the stage where i cringed at saying "I'm going to write positive things about myself" though

 

[Pluto]

I think so many dudes get it wrong when it comes to game and approaching women when they think that just because you do so many approaches, you will eventually get good. The fact is that I have seen a lot of guys do 100s if not thousands of approaches only to have almost nothing to show for it in the end. What's even worse is that these guys will now call themselves a game expert for example just because they have done so many approaches despite the fact that the results do not line up. Now on a long-enough timeline, these guys will eventually get laid because even a broken clock is right every now and then.

IMO, getting laid is the worst thing that can happen to such men because then it just reinforces their toxic behavior as not being a big deal. You will often see these men immediately transition to being some game guru who talks about how women love X types of men who are tall, of a dominant race, etc. Deep down inside they are hurting but just want an audience, their game "expertise" giving them that.

From observing guys who were naturals that did well with women, I always noticed that they might not have had the smoothest lines or even known the best tips and tricks to get her into bed but their vibe just came off as infectious in a positive way. You wanted to be around them and women as a result overlooked their flaws.

The problem with pickup is that so many guys come into it with a very weak foundation of who they are. They are formerly sexless dudes who were outcasts and they think that some tactics or "game" will fix that, it rarely if ever does. Often times it requires these men finding confidence on their own whether it is through a better group of friends or through accomplishing shit they see as cool shit in life. From there, they build that solid foundation and can actually have legitimate success with women. You will find them doing far less approaches but having a far higher success rate.

You can tell that these guys are truly independent of outcomes because they laugh off rejections and have a great night nonetheless. What's most important is that these guys are desirable company to be around.

A word of advice for you colgate is that you need to be careful yourself. Being a guy of a minority group, there is so much content out there about how you are unlovable or undesired based on things about yourself that you cannot change. I have seen this eat men alive and turn them into lesser version of themselves. My hopes are that KillYourInnerLoser and Radical continue to do the good job that they are doing here to keep all conversations centered around how your race has a big say in how much women love you out.

We truly are lucky to have a community like this where we can all lift each other up and continue to help the team be the best version of themselves. I'll tell you that with MOST other game communities, it is literally:

1. OMG this city sucks ass for game
2. OMG you are not tall, white, and have model looks so you cannot get laid
3. OMG only X type of guys were meant to get laid

It's very easy to become self-loathing and negative when you read the toxic content that is out there. I rambled on but it's because I see the state of "real" dating advice given to men and cannot help but wonder how many more men will come out self-loathing due to the blind leading the blind.

 

[colgate / bulldog]

Thanks for the reply Pluto.

However, I will be honest up front, when I initially read your reply, I was a bit irritated because I felt like the points you brought up were just talking past my situation and how I've done things so far. And I feel like I've been unfairly conflated with other guys when you bring up things such as:

I think so many dudes get it wrong when it comes to game and approaching women when they think that just because you do so many approaches, you will eventually get good.

What's even worse is that these guys will now call themselves a game expert for example just because they have done so many approaches despite the fact that the results do not line up

IMO, getting laid is the worst thing that can happen to such men because then it just reinforces their toxic behavior as not being a big deal.

These things are no doubt, true. But maybe I'm overreacting. I'm curious why you brought these points up in your post.

I'm not entitled to you having read my log, so I'll try to explain certain nuances here with my last post and my journey in general.

For me, self-loathing wasn't something that came from approach. It was a trait I've had since childhood.

Did certain moments from approach reinforce that belief? Perhaps.

But I've usually dismissed most blackpill content "on the internet". If you've seen this post: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=28201#p28201, I pretty much started blissfully unaware of certain things that may actually be a disadvantage .

And I've learned that guys without those "disadvantages" cannot possibly understand what it's like to be in that position. In effect, they're "naturals" with specific traits. We could by all means go and find counterexamples (e.g.: this guy doesn't act super masculine and has a good dating life!), but that just begs the question of, okay, now I need to observe what he's doing that I'm not, and then I can recalibrate my actions towards that.

I'm not the type of guy who makes excuses not to change something and fix that thing about himself, it should be obvious from how often I go full-on introspective in my log, because I seek to not only identify reasons why I might not be succeeding, but then how I can actually fix them. And then y'all have seen me post about actually doing it.

Some of my recent "blackpill" posts were completely from my own observations. But how we interpret observations of people's behavior towards us entirely depends on how we see ourselves at a baseline level. I can reframe this story, for example, https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27178#p27178, as "well this girl simply didn't prefer my type, I will just go find girls who are interested in my type".

While this is solid positive thinking and it makes you "feel better", depending on what your goals are, this can actually result in stagnation and complacency. In other words, there's a certain type of girl I want, and for whatever reason I'm not getting it (ok not a pornstar necessarily, but bear with me here). It's obviously because I'm not able to filter for the girls I want yet.

And I think it's defeatist to sit there and say "well you just need to find the girls who like you already". Two reasons:
1) it absolves you of the responsibility to change yourself
2) it teaches you that there's nothing you can do to achieve certain goals

At the end of the day I had to peer deep in myself and figure out what that was. And then think about how that's influencing my own analyses, decisions, lifestyle choices, etc.

Obviously the next step is figuring out how to go from there and change it.


Some other comments I have regarding your post:

The problem with pickup is that so many guys come into it with a very weak foundation of who they are.

This is definitely true regarding myself. Back in August, I decided, fuck it, let's start approaching girls. And along the way I was forced to uncover inconvenient truths about myself if I wanted to continue (like I always do throughout my log, even now). I've repeatedly said that I see "talking to girls" as a form of therapy, because that's what it's done for me.

From observing guys who were naturals that did well with women, I always noticed that they might not have had the smoothest lines or even known the best tips and tricks to get her into bed but their vibe just came off as infectious in a positive way. You wanted to be around them and women as a result overlooked their flaws.

Yes.

You can tell that these guys are truly independent of outcomes because they laugh off rejections and have a great night nonetheless. What's most important is that these guys are desirable company to be around.

I've been in this zone before too, yeah.

A word of advice for you @colgate is that you need to be careful yourself. Being a guy of a minority group, there is so much content out there about how you are unlovable or undesired based on things about yourself that you cannot change. I have seen this eat men alive and turn them into lesser version of themselves. My hopes are that @KillYourInnerLoser and @Radical continue to do the good job that they are doing here to keep all conversations centered around how your race has a big say in how much women love you out.

I don't know why you brought this point up honestly because I've rarely talked about race, and I've never been insecure about it. It just comes off as you wrote this post without actually understanding what my struggles are, because it's beyond race.

See this other post I made: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=854&p=30727&hilit=incompetence#p30727

 

[Pluto]

You know, I didn't have the full context and had some frustration on my end as well towards the poison that is being spread by guys about dating and meeting women, some of whom are being seen as "gurus" and experts. As soon as I read your post on self-loathing, I felt the need to interject without having full context on the situation. While I wanted it to come from a good and caring place, the truth is I used your thread to vent my own frustrations with some of what I am seeing and the word self-loathing just triggered a certain response in me.

My fault.

 

[colgate / bulldog]

Here's a fat update.

So I flew into Chicago last Tuesday morning and did some daygame on Wednesday and Thursday. Then I met up with the gamecation group I met in Phoenix back in January to head over to Iowa City. You're probably like "colgate, who the FUCK lives in Iowa???". That's what I thought too, but it's pretty much exclusively a college town with a poppin nightlife scene on the weekends.

The Destiny Chick
Started my day on Wednesday approaching an Asian girl at the station. She said she had a bf, but I decided to keep talking to her to get some more intel on where I should go. Just asked her where there might be people walking around and such and she suggested the Water Tower mall area.

Did another approach on the street, also rejected with bf.

Then I walked into the Water Tower mall and saw a cute black chick coming down the escalator and opened her.

She was asking me whether this was a prank. At first I joked "yeah, this is a prank. I'm joking" -> "omg..." -> "no just kidding I'm serious". A little back and forth.

You're going to have to prove me this isn't a prank. Show me your social media.
I only have Snapchat
How are you going to prove this isn't a prank???
uhhh...I'll show you random pictures of me doing stuff on my phone

So I had us sit down on a couch and I started showing her just whatever was in my camera roll. She also commented "oh by the way, I have to go back to work soon", but I basically ignored that ("oh yeah no worries"), and continued. Then she just wanted to keep asking me more questions about who I was and what I was doing in Chicago (I had told her I'm a tourist). I flipped it and started asking some things about her. She later said something like "I don't know why, but Indians keep wanting to talk to me, but you don't seem like an Indian. You're confident, and no offense, but most Indians are timid."

Then I said that I should keep exploring Chicago and she told me she could show me some places on her way back to work. So we exited the mall.

She was telling me like "omg I seriously thought that u coming up to me was a prank, you like just stood still and pointed right at me like 'hey!' and i was like huh?? me??? i see it on tiktok all the time". I literally don't remember how I approached her, including the pointing thing. I guess apparently I pointed right at her and called her cute or something lolol.

I have a confession to make.
Go for it
I'm actually done with work. I don't have anything to do now haha.

So I suggested we go eat some lunch, because I was hungry. I directed us to a Japanese BBQ.

I think you're about to take me to a place I've always wanted to go to...

Then we arrive at the restaurant.

Omg...this is the exact place...this is destiny...

She started telling me about how she usually walks around in the mall during her work breaks, but something pulled her to go to some stores she doesn't normally go to. And that she found nothing in those stores and had no idea why she was "pulled there". She said the reason was because she was supposed to meet me that day.

She also kept making a lot of comments about how strong and direct my eye contact was. Like "you're like staring right into my soul...".

Anyway, we ate food and then it started raining.

Hey, this is pretty crazy, and I know we just met. But we should watch some movies at your place. It's raining outside.

She mulled over it for maybe a minute or two and I kept convo going. She said she had homework to do, but was probably free on Thursday. I would have been down to meet on Thursday, but I was kind of like well it's raining and I don't know what else to do now. Then she said, okay we can go to my place.

We walked out of the restaurant and she wanted to show me some other places first. There is this Nordstrom with a bar right in the middle of all the clothing aisles. She bought me a drink and we chatted some more. Then we rode the bus to her place and I had put my arm over her on the bus.

We arrive at her place and she says she wants to change into something more comfortable (lol). But then she's like "oh my water has issues I need to fix this". So I let her deal with that for a bit. She tells me I can put on any movie I want.

Then she starts washing her dishes. I sit there for like 5-10 minutes and my heart starts racing. I can't handle it so I get up and walk over to her, and tell her to put her hand on my heart. She's like "omg are u okay???" I told her "u make me nervous". "Kiss me". -> "omg no....i'll hug you..." and gives me a hug.

I lead her to the couch and she sits kind of on top of me while hugging me while holding my hand. I tried kissing her again but I got deflected. "Let me go finish washing the dishes". So I let her off and just watched the movie for a bit more.

She comes over to the couch and tells me "you're so different now...like you're in a trance or something...are you hiding something from me?" "no, I told you what I wanted" "yeah but I feel like ur hiding something else..."

She moves onto the floor and opens her laptop to do some homework. I move over to her after a bit on the floor and after some talk I try to makeout again but it didn't work. We chatted for a bit about the hw and I tried again I think but didn't work again so I just sat back on the couch.

I basically do nothing for another 20-30 minutes, and then she starts talking to me again. She's like "you keep switching between being super confident and normal and being in this weird trance, and I don't know what's happening". I basically have no idea what to do so I just chill on the couch and keep watching the movie while she finishes her homework.

I tell her to sit on the couch and I put my arm over her and she nonreacts. I think she said some comment about how I'm not giving her any space, and I pretty much disengage completely for the rest of the time.

Then she walks me to the station. She asks me why I'm so quiet now, and I just kind of ask "I am?". Hugged at station, deflected kiss, and I didn't get her contact (I remember her instagram handle I think from when she was showing me).

Always talk to girls
Went out and maybe only did ~10 approaches on Thursday. It was pretty cold and rainy and I couldn't exactly find volume even though there were a good amount of people walking around. I was only approaching solo girls because I was trying to get instadates only since I was leaving for Iowa the next day.

Then I was riding the train and realized I should just start talking to attractive girls without thinking about and bothering with any sort of "outcome". I still think "approaching a girl" is this like separate act and I don't entirely settle in to acting like myself until I feel like we're on a date and the girl is engaging me or something. Really have to work on that, so I figured if I see a cute girl or group of girls, I should just strike up convo or do an approach or anything, even if I know it won't go anywhere. So I did 2 of those on Thursday night while riding the trains around.

On Friday morning, I was riding the train to meet the gamecation group when I saw a pretty unassuming skinny black chick in an airport employee uniform. I just directly opened her. I learned she'd never traveled outside of Chicago in her whole life, and of course, never been on a plane in her whole life even though she cleans airplanes every day. I was telling her about all my crazy travels and she kept slowly taking off her mask and smiling and giggling.

I liked the vibe we had but I was about to get off to my station so I just decided to grab her contact.

Dance floor magnet
Got picked up from the station by the gamecation guys and headed over to Iowa City. I swapped out the lightbulbs in the room with colored bulbs and had some strawberry gin ready to go in case I could get a girl back.

We went out and I immediately just started vibing with the music and heading over to the dance floor, separating myself from the gamecation group. This other random group of 4 guys came up to me like "yoooo we saw u here last year u were going wild bro!!!" I have never been to Iowa in my life, but fuck it, let's play along with it. "Yeah I was so fucked up dude I don't even remember". They took me to this other venue that was pretty much entirely a dance floor.

I separated from them and basically went ballistic. I was dancing with so many girls, some which I approached but many where girls pulled me to dance with them and their group. I basically did zero conversation and extremely minimal talking. I tried to makeout with one girl in a group but got deflected and immediately switched to another girl in the group.

Ran into the group of 4 guys again and they had a girl with them. Decided to start talking with her and lightly touching her, etc, and one dude was like "omg that's my bro's gf man...". I basically waved it off ("oh really?") and kept talking to her. Then another guy from the group shows up like oh yeah this is my gf lol so I backed off.

The group bought me a drink, and we sat at a table and shot the shit for a little bit. Then I just went back to the dance floor to try to get somewhere with any of the girls.

Met up with the gamecation group again at another venue, only to get immediately separated and pulled into another group of girls and danced with them. Kind of the same deal as the other club.

I think I had danced with 20+ girls that night. But I couldn't seem to make inroads. I think I intuit body language only when there's no talking going on and it's all dancing, and I didn't feel like sticking with one girl for too long as a result. Also most of the girls were in groups. I usually ejected out of dances when I started feeling the girl pull away. Essentially, I could start dancing with girls or even have girls pull me to dance with them pretty easily but had no idea how to escalate the interaction past just dancing and maybe grinding here and there.

Some more daygame
Despite whatever frustrations and dark moments I expressed past few weeks, I essentially realized at the end of the day I just love going out on a bright sunny afternoon (or in this case, a cold windy evening) and talking to girls. I can't see myself not doing that. It doesn't matter how much I suck at it right now and how much I can't make real inroads, I just have to do it.

Did 7 approaches in around 45 minutes around Iowa City. Got the number of a hot barbie doll white chick who was actually also going to move to Nashville in a few months, and then I later texted her to get her snap. Tried to invite her to an afterparty at my friend's hotel room and she even saved the messages with the logistics and pics but ultimately didn't show. But then she sent me a random snap the next day anyway. So I might start trying to have a lot of random girls on snap and sending random crap to them and send more stuff to girls who send me random crap back, because it seems like that's what they're doing too. I'm new to Snapchat but it seems like a fun platform to use. Plus, I think it will force me to try to do interesting things in my life and/or be more creative with framing certain things I'm doing.

I hate night conversation!
Unlike the previous night, I decided to wing with another guy in the group on the next night. I don't know why, but I absolutely hate having conversations with girls and people during nightgame. I'd rather just go straight to the dance floor. I'm not terrible at it during the daytime, but night just puts me on the edge because I know my social awareness is like zero and I feel like a total alien in nightclubs. Dance floors rule because I love music and once I figured out how to vibe to literally any song, even if I don't like it, I feel like that's my real language.

I just feel like I can't be creative at all while talking at night. Sometimes if I have some momentum going, perhaps. But I still feel super dull with conversation in general. I really respect stand-up comedians because I literally have zero idea how tf people do that shit. Maybe it's something I need to look into figuring out.

My friend commented on it as well, that I was being quiet. I tried to start talking a bit more but I still just felt very subdued and holding myself back way too much.

But I have to get over this. I'm going to be severely shooting myself in the foot if I can't get past actually trying to have conversations with people at night. And I'm genuinely enamored by how certain guys can just lock-in these interesting nightclub/bar conversations. They are way more interesting than daytime ones, and I wish I knew how to do that. The advice I mainly got was "just go up and say anything". So maybe I'm literally going to have to do some drills where I go up to as many girls as possible and literally make any observational comment and keep the interactions going as long as possible. idk.

There is no time for games. Only time for gains.

My favorite approach from that night was when another friend and I approached some group of girls. We told one of the girls we would buy her a drink if she played fake bouncer and got 5 people to show her an ID. She was on the fence like saying "omg......yes.....idk......maybe.....no...idk....yeah". So I just told her "ok I'll show you and then u can copy me". First person in line actually pulls out her ID again and is about to show me when she sees the venue paper wristbands on my arm and is like "omg wait a sec...". Then two guys deflect me with "hell no".

I think my rejections scared the girl but she still seemed on the fence. So I gave her some motivational ass pep talk "look this is gonna be hilarious and u can probably do it better than i did. if u go for the guys that look like simps they'll definitely show you their ID". Still on the fence and then ultimately was like "omg, I can't do this..." and we left.

The negative momentum I felt from my abysmal conversational skills basically didn't help me when I tried to switch into dance floor mode at some other venues. I just wasn't vibing at all, no girls came close to me, and any interaction i tried starting got instantly deflected.

Later I somehow got a bit of sensory overload and crashed like around 1:15. But then I met up with the group for an afterparty.

I had learned that pretty much nobody got any action from nightgame, except one guy managed to somehow pull and smash 2 different girls on that night. Throughout the trip, no one could get past a makeout. And some of the strats that one guy had used which worked like a charm in his previous Iowa City visits basically had girls running away (like punching bag game bets).

The Airport Chick 2
I had a lot of time to kill in between being dropped back off in Chicago and flying back home. I texted the chick from Friday whom I approached on the train and she was down to meet me in the airport.

We met and she initially was bubbly and giggly and looked very open. All the bars/restaurants were closing down so we just sat on some bench and talked while I had my arm over her. I could tell she was nervous af because she asked me like 5 times "so what are u gonna do when u get home" and "what did u do this weekend". She kept looking at me with these cute eyes but I didn't make any moves omfg.

After maybe 20-30 mins of hanging out, she was like "why all these people be lookin at us..." I asked her if she knew anywhere more private we could hang out, so we walked to another part of the terminal.

At some point she started saying that she was kind of tired and wanted to go home. I got pretty desperate and needy because I also noticed she stopped being super bubbly and I kept pushing for us to hang out some more, which she obliged. We sat down on two stools but she was trying to look at her phone (I told her to put it away). And when I was sitting facing her with my knee in between her knees, she immediately turned 90 degrees and closed herself off. I noticed all this, but went for a hail Mary type makeout attempt right there and she was like omg no...

She was like can u walk me to the trains? And I said ok sure but I can't leave the terminal because I'd have to go through security again. Apparently she didn't even realize that. I tried to get a kiss right at the security exit, but she gave me a kiss on the cheek instead and then kept telling me to call her. I didn't, but I later texted her asking what her Snapchat account was.



Takeaways
Okay, I obviously had a good amount of fun. But the Destiny Chick and Airport Chick 2 made me realize my new biggest flaw, and I can actually reflect back on it to pretty much every time I've gotten deflected on escalation, and even as far back as just getting deflected on certain approaches. It drills quite deeply into a new root problem I've discovered.

The moment I sense I'm being shut out or closed off, I get extremely desperate and needy and try to push for things way too hard. Like I refuse to just take anything I perceive as "closing off" in stride, I just get super needy and my behavior becomes extremely jilted and bizarre. The Destiny Chick pretty much explicitly highlighted it when she said I'm in a "trance" and it's so different from how when I was "confidently talking to her" and "staring into her soul", but then I started acting like I was "hiding something". And I noticed how weird and pushy I became with Airport Chick 2 when she started closing off and mentioning that she wanted to check out for the night.

I was reading a book recommendation I got from one of the guys in the gamecation group called How to Make People Like You in 90 Seconds or Less and this passage stuck its finger right at me like I probably did with Destiny Chick:
View attachment 1

^ if you want to know how my approach interactions/instadates/dates/pulls go, it's literally this story. Rosa slightly pushes back or starts acting a little closed off about purchasing the computer, and Tony seems to somehow take it personally for whatever reason and literally switches from being charming and sunny to neurotic and desperate.

I can think of several approaches where I noticed the girl becoming closed off at a certain point and my reaction was usually jumping for the contact anyway. Or jumping for advancing the interaction in some way, even though I can tell she's closed off. Or even, say I get a girl's attention and she's giving a me a huge frown and looks like she's ready to walk off, and I get flustered and just impulsively call her cute even though I'm completely put off by her reaction. I mean her reaction isn't cute, so why the fuck am I going to call her that.

I don't exactly know how to rectify this. Maybe I keep thinking once she's closed off, I can never open it again, so I do the worst possible thing which is trying to advance the interaction, instead of trying to open her up, or just calling it and leaving. I have no idea how to open up girls who are becoming closed off and while calling it and leaving would probably boost my self-respect, I'd probably be blowing a lot of opportunities relying on that too much. So I'd really like some feedback on this.

 

[lacroix]

I have a confession to make.
Go for it
I'm actually done with work. I don't have anything to do now haha.

Is that color coding? Amazing.

I think I had danced with 20+ girls that night. But I couldn't seem to make inroads. I think I intuit body language only when there's no talking going on and it's all dancing, and I didn't feel like sticking with one girl for too long as a result. Also most of the girls were in groups. I usually ejected out of dances when I started feeling the girl pull away. Essentially, I could start dancing with girls or even have girls pull me to dance with them pretty easily but had no idea how to escalate the interaction past just dancing and maybe grinding here and there.

Wow dude you are a fucking MACHINE. I desperately need a dance floor confidence bootcamp. I wonder if you're the kind of person who just finds it way easier to be physically expressive, and if maybe that's why it came fast to you to escalate physically so quickly. Also you're probably going to be way better at sex than most guys once you start getting the ladies in bed

But I have to get over this. I'm going to be severely shooting myself in the foot if I can't get past actually trying to have conversations with people at night. And I'm genuinely enamored by how certain guys can just lock-in these interesting nightclub/bar conversations. They are genuinely way more interesting than daytime ones, and I wish I knew how to do that. The advice I mainly got was "just go up and say anything". So maybe I'm literally going to have to do some drills where I go up to as many girls as possible and literally make any observational comment and keep the interactions going as long as possible. idk.

For me the goal is to just joke around and have a ton of fun. I'm not always in the mood and can't always pull it off, but nowadays when I go out I'm excited, because I'm thinking to myself of all the ridiculous and fun conversations/jokes I'm going to be making and having later that night. I think you'll find it's a lot of fun too when you really learn how to let loose.

except one guy managed to somehow pull and smash 2 different girls on that night

wait, is this who I think it is? The guy who pulled multiple girls the same night when we were in Phoenix? LOL

The moment I sense I'm being shut out or closed off, I get extremely desperate and needy and try to push for things way too hard

This is a great observation. There is a saying, that whoever owns the silence has the power in the situation. If you have to fill every moment of silence then you are definitely putting yourself in a lower position in necessary. One thing I will say is that, if the girl is really into you--she will either try really hard to fill in the silence and carry the conversation, or she won't care if things are quiet. So I think if you practice getting more comfortable with longer silences you'll be golden. One thing I sometimes do is just sit there with a really big derpy smile and say "sup," or "help me make conversation I'm blanking right now!" Just calling it out can be a pretty fun.

I don't exactly know how to rectify this. Maybe I keep thinking once she's closed off, I can never open it again, so I do the worst possible thing which is trying to advance the interaction, instead of trying to open her up, or just calling it and leaving. I have no idea how to open up girls who are becoming closed off and while calling it and leaving would probably boost my self-respect, I'd probably be blowing a lot of opportunities relying on that too much. So I'd really like some feedback on this.

If the girl is closing off, I'm taking a complete stab in the dark here. I think you need to practice being a bit more "real." Like, when you're pushing for sex/escalation and get turned down, maybe you randomly become a bit more insecure, your face expression changes and your confidence melts away. The solution I think is to OWN what you're doing. Being willing to stand by it, aka VULNERABILITY. I wonder if sometimes subconsciously you kissing/pulling is something you try to "get away with" with the girl. If a girl turns me down for a makeout or something usually I look at her with a smile, and go "hey, you are super cute right now" and change the subject a bit. It's good because I'm totally owning the fact that I just tried to makeout with her, and also communicating that I'm cool that she doesn't want to do it and not at all butthurt. I'm not saying you're getting butthurt, but if you get awkward or shut down a little bit I think the girl might receive it that way. It's like, I liked this guy so much, all that happened was I didn't want to kiss him yet, why is he suddenly acting so different, was it just an act? For you it wasn't an act, just a bit of inexperience making you awkward.

I mean fuck, you could probably even say something really autistic like
"oh shit! I really wanted to kiss you. It's cool, let's just keep hanging out, I like you."

 

[Adrizzle]

She comes over to the couch and tells me "you're so different now...like you're in a trance or something...are you hiding something from me?" "no, I told you what I wanted" "yeah but I feel like ur hiding something else..."

The moment I sense I'm being shut out or closed off, I get extremely desperate and needy and try to push for things way too hard.

It is fantastic that you have come to this understanding/knowledge. You had a girl bring you back to her place but it still didn’t come good. This could be deep inner stuff that you need to figure out.

The chick that said you went into a trance is a gem for pointing this out to you. You should have asked what she thought you were hiding.

When I was younger I had a few experiences where girls were super into me when we met. And WENT COLD DURING THE DATE. A bit of this was nervousness, a bit of this was not leading a bit part was being incongruent between high energy approach Adriel and regular low energy Adriel.

You should remember a no can mean not now. And not now is as good as no. You sticking around and trying to brute force your way with girls will not work. If you get 3 no’s look at them as 3 not nows. But that does mean you should leave and do something else.

 

[Vice]

But then she sent me a random snap the next day anyway. So I might start trying to have a lot of random girls on snap and sending random crap to them and send more stuff to girls who send me random crap back, because it seems like that's what they're doing too. I'm new to Snapchat but it seems like a fun platform to use. Plus, I think it will force me to try to do interesting things in my life and/or be more creative with framing certain things I'm doing.

You're headed in the right direction; Instagram has this feature but with the added benefit that you can save your stories for others to view forever, eliminating the need to constantly update it.

 

[Self Improver]

Great update.

I can relate.

MAC THOUGHTS:

I think when a brain is subconsciously calibrating, there may be incongruences and inconsistencies in subtle subcommunications.

You know you are going to have to physically escalate, and you have not built this behaviour into your identity yet. Maybe there are subtle cues we give off to suggest we're not comfortable, and women pick up on this - hence the 'trance' comment.

Why do I think this?

Consider my 25 dates: the moment I ask them to come to mine, they stand up and say they need to go home. I am uncomfortable in those moments of asking, and at some level, as I know I need to physically escalate, I myself am incongruent on these dates. I suspect women are picking up on this, and I am hence obtaining the outcomes I do.

A lot of brain change will be needed to make these behaviour congruent

Day game, Night game, and continuing with dates with a focus on INTENT might be the fastest way to rewire a very uncalibrated brain.

MAC

 

[colgate / bulldog]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

maybe that's why it came fast to you to escalate physically so quickly

Maybe part of it is me trying to steamroll past open/closed body language and expressions because I thought it didn't matter, when it seems like it does. And also some stupid roadblock I have where I think I have zero control of the girl and there's nothing I can do to open her up once she's closed off.

For me the goal is to just joke around and have a ton of fun. I'm not always in the mood and can't always pull it off

Yeah, maybe I just need to "give myself permission to suck" and just try to talk to as many people (not just hot girls) as possible just to gain momentum and see what happens.

wait, is this who I think it is? The guy who pulled multiple girls the same night when we were in Phoenix? LOL

No, funnily enough he didn't get anything. Only a clit vibrator from a chick who left her bag in his room, but that was from a duo pull with another guy. The guy who pulled+smashed twice on Saturday night was actually the guy I thought was some random dude trying to steal my approach in this post: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=27153#p27153

So I think if you practice getting more comfortable with longer silences you'll be golden. One thing I sometimes do is just sit there with a really big derpy smile and say "sup," or "help me make conversation I'm blanking right now!" Just calling it out can be a pretty fun.

Funnily enough, during daygame instadates/dates, I do this a lot. I love just looking deep into a girl's eyes and then I don't have to do any work and she just drives the conversation haha. Maybe I need to just make small inroads at night and then do this too at night.

Like, when you're pushing for sex/escalation and get turned down, maybe you randomly become a bit more insecure, your face expression changes and your confidence melts away. The solution I think is to OWN what you're doing. Being willing to stand by it, aka VULNERABILITY. I wonder if sometimes subconsciously you kissing/pulling is something you try to "get away with" with the girl.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. I feel like from being active in the daygame chat for so long gave me this toxic mindset that girls don't want to do anything and you're supposed to cajole them into servicing you.

But it's probably closer to something like, you are trying to offer an all-expenses-paid vacation to random people. Yeah, most people would probably decline an offer like that, even if it's all-expenses-paid so they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, but they have some excuses and/or obligations for why they can't do it, so getting someone to take it would probably be inherently low-percentages. But if you want to actually get the person who would be willing to take it in the first place, you have to actually have an exciting vacation ready for them and be able to express that in a way that makes them feel that they know you'd give them a good time.

^bit of a longwinded analogy, but I'm still nowhere close to that point yet. I have so many insecurities and feelings of inferiority I have to get over, still. But it'll happen.

I'm not saying you're getting butthurt, but if you get awkward or shut down a little bit I think the girl might receive it that way. It's like, I liked this guy so much, all that happened was I didn't want to kiss him yet, why is he suddenly acting so different, was it just an act? For you it wasn't an act, just a bit of inexperience making you awkward.

Honestly, I think I do get pretty butthurt when it does happen. Like I feel like I lose interest just because she declined it initially and I start shutting down and getting cold. I don't think I do it overtly, but it kind of hits me in the same spot as probably how I acted when I was a kid and threw a tantrum when I didn't get what I wanted. I think especially because I made myself really vulnerable to the Destiny chick about being so open about how nervous she made me feel, and I still got declined.

But I probably had some base mindset and entitlement that "oh if I make myself vulnerable, she will DEFINITELY let me escalate". In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have gone for a makeout right after putting her hand on my heart because she reacted in kind of a closed off way (she asked me if I was okay, as if something was wrong with me). There's no entitlement here. I literally forgot the basics of compliance that pancakemouse had posted on my log a few weeks ago because I was so desperate and didn't think I'd get anything otherwise: https://killyourinnerloser.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30585#p30585

You should have asked what she thought you were hiding.

I had asked her several times, and she couldn't come up with anything. I kept just telling her that I thought she was cute and I wanted to kiss her, because I didn't really know what I was supposed to say either, and that's what I wanted.

 

[Squilliam]

Read your whole entry. Your self awareness is top notch.

I don't really have any advice, I just wanna say I can really relate to the whole concept of shutting down after rejection. On my last date when I got rejected, I lost interest in the girl immediately.

I think it's an ego defense thing. It's the attitude of "She's not into me? Who cares, I wasn't that interested anyways."