Drama's progress log - Becoming masculine

Red said:
Nah I don't have this experience. I know that lot of people on redpill subs are treating this as a shit test and that you should just ignore it.
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Most of these "redpillers" are also bunch of social outcasts without real world understanding.

There is "Boyfriend" and "boy friend" - is a fine line but you can tell when it's a ST and when it's a "thank you for your attention, but I will never sleep with you" - but don't worry guys, keep working and one day you might get the secret society card
 
AskTheDom said:
natedawg said:
None of them replied. In fact, none of my CA leads from this week have replied. I think it has to do with my short interaction times, lack of creating a hook and getting them invested
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Well yeah that's pretty much a bad set itself, maybe she isn't interested and give the number to send you your way politely
Optimal sets are between 5' to 8' - you know 4 things about eachother and you opened/closed strong.
These 3 macro areas are already good tellers of set progression
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Thanks bro, appreciate the comments on this post and the other ones you made, have taken it all in, adjusting and improving.

Definitely need to get over the hurdle of "wtf do I say next" - I've been watching some Tay Social, he's really good at creating polarity and sexualising interactions. I tend to be overly logical and guide conversations based on logic rather than emotion. I need to be spiking emotions.

Went out with ImChuckBass again yesterday for some day game, was a really good time, helps so much to be with someone else. Can't remember how many approaches I did exactly, but probably around 7-8 in an hour and a half.

Got 2 instagrams out of it, two beautiful girls, will see how the responses go, but pretty sure they'll not respond, because of the problems listed before.

Anyway dating life is really healthy at the moment, I don't feel like I need to focus on this as much as I do on my business.

I've also hired a coach for training, going to enter a natural bodybuilding competition next year. I'm 30, so I probably won't have an edge over the early 20s guys who have dedicated themselves, but fuck it, I'm doing it for myself.
 
Okay gotta write this one up cause it's taking up too much mental real estate and I need y'all advice.

Went on a date with possibly the hottest girls I've ever been on a date with last night. We matched on Hinge - I sent her a rose, which is essentially a super like. Took a while to actually get her out, I persisted a bit, but she came out. She's 21, really pretty, big tits, killer body, has a legion of thirsty dudes after her. This became very obvious very quickly, but I could already have guessed this. She even talked about random people asking her to do OnlyFans with them, hot to that extent. So coming in to this, I was already on the back foot.

We went to a bar, chatted for an hour or so. I did well with a little bit of teasing, but probably not enough, but we share a lot of interests, I did a lot of DHV with stories and sharing my hobbies. Thought I had her hooked, went for the kiss and got rejected. Bad first move.

Went to another bar, talked for another 2 hours or so. Probably too long, but I was actually really enjoying my time with her, she's got great values, isn't a total fucking retard like most of Gen Z and we saw eye to eye on a lot of different topics. Got some food after, walked her home.

At her building, went for the kiss and she gave me a few tight lipped kisses. No open mouth, I didn't push for it. Didn't want to come off as needy. After the first one she goes "okay you win". I made a joke and we kissed again a few times, but again no open mouth.

The fucked thing is I went home and dreamt about her. This never happens. This is a sign I care too much and I've probably already lost, so maybe better I just count it as an L already and move on, but I'd at least like to try and get her on a second date.

My strat is to post high value shit on IG - that's where we chat. I'm going on a two week holiday in a few days, so logistically it might be hard for me to meet her before then. And after those two weeks, don't know if she'd still be keen. What are your guys thoughts? Should I try and get her to come out for a second date Sunday night?

Like I said, she's occupying too much mental real estate already, so not a good sign. And she knows she is super attractive, so is probably leaning into this and expects me to chase. I don't like feeling like this, never have.
 
I'm still a newbie so take this with a grain of salt, but the one thing that stands out to me is that you didn't try to pull her?

It also definitely seems like too much time. 3+ hours for a first date with no pull sounds like a lot.

I can relate to the feeling of the girl taking up too much space in your mind, that's how I feel about every semi-attractive girl I go out with that I might've been able to have sex with, lol.
 
Best bet is get her our ASAP before you leave. I've been in the same situation with the same feelings, the only thing you can do is shoot your shot and hope for the best. It'll either work out or it doesn't, and if it doesn't then you're gonna feel that feeling of disappointment for a few days. But you'll deal with it and move on with life.
As far as increasing your chances, someone more experienced should chime in but the insta story and get a date before you leave is probably your only option.
 
Update on the last situation.

So I got her number, called her and we set up a date for the Sunday. Then she didn't confirm the whole Saturday, only texted me back midnight on Saturday night saying she was too busy with study, blah blah blah. I was out anyway gaming with my wing, so was having fun regardless.

I followed my plan, posted a story (which was actually from a house party a few months ago) on the Sunday morning, DHV. She saw it. I messaged her back saying "No problem, I'm gonna walk the dog later, you're welcome to join, if not I'll see you in two weeks when I get back". She replied that she was keen and we ended up going for a 2 hour walk.

On the walk I was more aloof, less smiley, cooler and generally more idgaf, alpha mentality, genuinely, not faking it. I also turned the conversation sexual about 30 mins in, asking her if she's had a threesome, what she thinks about group sex, talking about other sexual stuff.

One hour in I went for the kiss again. Same shit, she gave me a peck on the lips, didn't go for open mouth. I said "okay, give me a proper kiss" and she said no. So I pulled away, literally just stopped touching her and separated. She said "Damn, I wanted you to work for it", to which I didn't respond. Then she literally clings on to my arm and gets in closer while I act like I don't give a fuck, which I kinda didn't. One minute later, I went in for a kiss and we made out. Boom. Calibration. This was a compliance test where she wanted to see if I'd chase when she rejected the kiss. I didn't, so it made her want me.

The psychology behind it is super interesting - She knows I have other options, she knows I'm not needy. And these things are genuine.

We ended the date making out, she almost didn't want to leave me. Maybe I should've gone for the pull, but I don't think it would've worked and again, didn't want to come off as needy. She said "you're not gonna ghost me are you?" - investment on her part.

Overall really happy with this. Calibration was key here. Dealing with the compliance test was also instrumental.

The plan from here is to keep gaming other girls, post cool shit on IG from my holiday and catch up with her when I'm back.

She's just the first one of many hotties that will come into my life. I recognise this and it's helping to get over the obsession with her. Once I improve my pictures and IG a bit more, get some more cool hobbies and generally become more chad-like, I'll start attracting more and more girls like her. It's progress.

In other news, got a camera to take dope pics. ImChuckBass and I are gonna start slaying the IG/tinder game. I'm also thinking of turning my IG into a street fashion/photography page, the photo quality is that good. For example, we passed this cute Colombian chick on the street and she was more than happy for me to take pictures of her, got her IG. I can see this turning into a really good avenue for passive game.

Also booked in my motorbike license.

And hired a bodybuilding coach, going to enter a competition end of next year.

The business is not going super well. I won't hit my goal of $350K this year, but other areas of my life and game are improving significantly. I'm also doing a course to set it up for massive success next year and will aim for $500K, which should be achievable with the new model.
 
Another insta-date yesterday and later lay.

Was out approaching in a new city (on holiday for a few weeks), went up to this cute 21 year old and told her she was cute, she stopped and we started chatting, teased her a bit, she was laughing and into it, we went to a park and sat down for 30-45 mins, chatting away and teasing her a bunch, dropping some DHV in there. I think it helped that I was dressed well, just bought a nice new necklace and I was in a great mood. Went in for a kiss, which she rejected, so I pulled back and continued convo like nothing happened. A few minutes later got a proper makeout. I followed up saying we should hang out soon. She was going to a party the next night, so I suggested that night, which she agreed to.

Met her later on at a cocktail bar, just normal convo, no making out, just a small kiss. Took her for a drive to a lookout point, it was a really nice night. Started making out in the car straight away, getting hot and heavy, sucking her titties and playing with her pussy. She told me she was on her period, so definitely no sex in the car, but agreed to go back to hers. I even made her give me head in the car on the way there. Good sex and will probably see her again soon.

Funny thing, she forgot my name and asked me after sex lmao. I just laughed it off.
 
Been slack on updating this cause of holidays, at the airport now. It was a semi-holiday, I was staying with my brother in another city, seeing if I wanted to live there. Had a good time just experiencing new places and meeting people. Got some cool pics with my new camera though. None of me, but good stuff for my IG nonetheless.

I got shitty sleep the whole time though, and realised how fundamentally important this is to living a good life. Going to put this as one of my top priorities, if not THE top priority right now. Someone told me "take care of your sleep and everything else takes care of itself"

On the women front, I chased way too much while I was here. There were a few girls which could've turned into lays (potentially), but I was too keen and that definitely came out in my interactions with them. This is a big learning for me. NEVER CHASE. You can pursue and put effort in, but the moment you need them more than they need you, you lose the game.

The other thing is the girl who I actually liked, the one who gave me the closed mouth kiss on our first date (wrote about her a few times), I texted her the other day. She took a day to respond. I took four hours to respond, asking when she's free next. It's now been 1.5 days with no reply. What's funny is we explicitly talked about this and how we don't waste people's time by not replying, ghosting, etc. Esentially she said she doesn't play games. Total lies. You can never trust women on what they say. A harsh, sad, brutal reality but it's so true, the older I get the more times this lesson is drilled into me. For some reason I thought she was different, but that's the part of me I will kill off. NEVER take a woman on face value. A RP truth - Look at her actions, don't listen to what she says.

Business wise I won't hit my goal this year. I'll get $250K if I'm lucky. It's nothing to scoff at, but it's not what I wanted. The positive is that I've realised I can't scale things as they are, hence why I've invested in the course. Changing a lot of shit around right now and I'll have the business restructured by the end of the year. Next year the goal will be $500K and it will be realistic. What I need now is more consistency in the way I work and what I'm doing. I was at this point last year and the first half of this year, but after a weeks' holiday earlier in the year, I came back and had NO motivation from July until now basically. I think this is just the natural course of running a business, I can't expect to be insanely motivated all the time. But I have to always be moving forward.

The things I've realised on this holiday though, is that running my own business I'm nowhere near as stressed as I was working for a firm. I control everything that happens. I'm also earning 3X as much as I was, and if I hit the goal this year, it will be 4X, next year if I hit 500K it'll be 8X. That's crazy.

Fitness wise, I took the last week off the gym. I also won't hit my goal of 90kg @ 10% body fat. That wasn't a realistic goal, if I'm honest. Next year I'll be training harder, more focused and outcome driven with a coach. I'm going to enter a bodybuilding comp at the end of next year so there's something attached to it. I look good though and get regular compliments on my body, so I'm not complaining about this at all.

Gotta get my flight, but this was a good update. Feel like things have come a long way since when I started it earlier this year.
 
Edit: This was a post about me complaining about a bitch that is clearly not that into me, asking for advice on how to win her over. It can't be done.

The forums doesn't need this and I don't need this, it's low value male thinking. Keep grinding fellas, fuck bitches, get money.
 
BECOMING MASCULINE

I've come to realise that I'm nowhere near as masculine or alpha as I thought. This is why I've had problems with attracting/retaining the kind of women I want and also not doing as well as I could in my business or other areas of life.

I'll keep it brief, but basically since discovering The Red Pill five years ago, I've put in place a lot of the things ostensibly, but failed to integrate fundamental concepts into the core of my being.

Chasing women, not focusing on my mission, indulging in weed, video games, porn or whatever other distraction... these are things I've always known I need to stop, but have never been able to. No more. I can't continue life with mediocre efforts and expect to become great. If I want to achieve what I want in life, I need to be extreme.

I'll edit this with a more structured game plan, but I just needed to get this out and verbalise it so I can commit to transforming myself.
 
Quick update of the last week:

Date #1 - Day game, insta-date, almost lay. Walking the dog on a sunny afternoon after reading/sunbaking in the park, walking back home and stopped to check out a food place, noticed this banging 8/10 Thai girl walk past and smile, probably the best invitation to approach I've gotten recently. Turned around and said "Hey, you're absolutely gorgeous" to which she replied something similar. My mindset was to 'act as if I had already gotten the lay', instantly started chatting shit, teasing and flirting with her. We went for a long walk, got a soft drink and sat in the park, started making out. Went back to mine and made out more, pushed for the lay but not too hard, didn't get it. I maybe could've gotten it if I'd calibrated enough but didn't want to kill it all together. Chatted through insta a bit the day after, set up a date for this Friday for her to come over and cook her dinner. I get the feeling she might flake though. Regardless, the best experiences/hottest girls from day game yet, definitely going for more instadates going forward.

Date #2 - Gym approach, 19 yo 7/10. Met this girl at the gym (technically approached her after, we both left at the same time. Chatted a bit through insta, invited her out to dinner. Got her to come round to my place afterwards, but by this point had realised she was pretty inexperienced, probably only dated 2-3 guys in her life. Unsure if she's still a virgin or not. Made out with her a bit, but didn't push at all. Going to see her again tomorrow.

Date #3 - bumble, travelling 23 yo 6.5/10. This one was a set up, after buying drinks at the bar, instantly realised she was dtf. Again, 'act as if', made out within 30 mins, back to my place after 45 mins, fucking after 1 hour. Nothing much to tell here cause there wasn't much calibration needed. It was almost too easy.

Becoming Masculine

1. Cut out weed for at least 3 months, THEN decide if I want to reintroduce on special occassions - this is my biggest vice and it turns me into a beta. When I don't smoke, I become the person I want to be. When I do, I can't socialise properly, my motivation is lower, I'm way more distracted, sadder and generally a piece of shit
2. Severely limit phone use (social media, dating apps)
3. No more chasing women - If they're not into me, forget about them
4. Focus on the mission - Business, bodybuilding, social circle, hobbies
5. Sleep - Going to buy a sleep ring and track my sleep. I've switched my bedroom and office around to enable air flow, light and space. This is crucial to putting the other pieces together
6. More leads from day, night and online game. Going to up my photos for instagram, as well as start being more consistent with day/night game
7. Medidate
8. Read more
 
Drama said:
Date #1 - Day game, insta-date, almost lay. Walking the dog on a sunny afternoon after reading/sunbaking in the park, walking back home and stopped to check out a food place, noticed this banging 8/10 Thai girl walk past and smile, probably the best invitation to approach I've gotten recently. Turned around and said "Hey, you're absolutely gorgeous" to which she replied something similar. My mindset was to 'act as if I had already gotten the lay', instantly started chatting shit, teasing and flirting with her. We went for a long walk, got a soft drink and sat in the park, started making out. Went back to mine and made out more, pushed for the lay but not too hard, didn't get it. I maybe could've gotten it if I'd calibrated enough but didn't want to kill it all together. Chatted through insta a bit the day after, set up a date for this Friday for her to come over and cook her dinner. I get the feeling she might flake though. Regardless, the best experiences/hottest girls from day game yet, definitely going for more instadates going forward.
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Saw this girl again last night, was fuckin awesome, best lay I've had in a while. Super passionate, really hot girl, she was really into me as well. Took her for a walk with the dog and brought her back to mine to cook her dinner. We fucked before cooking, then had dinner, then fucked again.

One thing was she was a little bit hot and cold towards the end. I said "let's hang out Tuesday or Thursday" and she was like "maybe" and I said "none of this maybe business". Dunno how to handle these situations when you've literally just made a girl cum twice, intense orgasms, then cuddled for an hour, even offered for her to stay if she wanted... She did message me when she got home cause I told her to, but we'll see. Regardless, I count this as a win. Hottest girl I've fucked from cold approach and did it in a pretty masterful way if I do say so myself.

Also cold approached this stunning 9/10 chick on Wednesday. Huge tits, really pretty, was quite nice as well. Catch is she's got about 7K insta followers so I know she's got more dick flying at her than 99% of girls out there. She's messaged me back, but has been about a day since I sent the last message. Not holding my breath on her.

The key with that approach was that I really didn't feel like doing it. I was not in a great mood, dressed casually cause I was walking the dog, just not in a positive mindset. Still got the number and insta and still layed out my game like I normally do.

What I've realised about these two is that they came as I was going about my normal day. I didn't go out in scheduled CA time like I usually do so it felt easier and more natural. Still gonna schedule time in for it, as well as add night game into the mix, but really happy with the last week girl wise.

Everything else... business-wise I'm doing okay. Absolutley not going to hit my goal this year. I'm on 210K for the year so nothing to laugh at, but gearing up for next year. Fitness is going well, the coach has given me some great advice and my body is looking really good. Could stand to lose a few % of body fat, but no complaints there.

Next thing to focus on is enhancing my social life and I'm not 100% sure how to do this. I think I should make more friends through the gym, most likely to meet like minded guys there. If not that, then through the motorbike (which I am still yet to buy). Gonna think on this.
 
Drama said:
Next thing to focus on is enhancing my social life and I'm not 100% sure how to do this. I think I should make more friends through the gym, most likely to meet like minded guys there.
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The best thing you can do is to try something and see what sticks. I've been trying to do the same thing over the last couple of weeks as well, going to group sessions at the gym and making smalltalk with the people that are there. My experience so far has been that it takes time, but it can be as easy as simply showing up enough times before you get to know people. Obviously it depends on your own level of sociability - but just the simple act of seeing the same people again and again over a will at some point compound up a feeling of familiarity between you and the other attendees.
 
2022 Recap

What a fucking year huh? I've grown more this past year than probably the last 3 years before that. Just incredible amounts of growth and mostly due to my commitments made on these forums/learning how to cold approach/becoming more masculine. I also built my finances, wealth and business to a point where I'm happy with what I've achieved and know where I'm going next. Also built my phique up respectably and I would now consider myself "jacked".

On the flip side, there are still some lingering issues. Mainly dopamine addictions - Weed I know for sure I have to cut out. I said I'd take a break until February, but had some on new years and I've been smoking the past week. I've felt like a gigantic piece of shit because of this and came to the realisation that it's all or nothing with weed. I need to not smoke it for 1-2 months at a time, then have a day where I go all out.

Also, need to become more dicsiplined and focused in my business. That's a non-negotiable. My business goals are quite large this year and going forward, so I can't lose focus and attention.

All in all, positive year, but still some things I need to nail down.

I'm gonna recap my goals set:

Business
Did not hit my goal of 350K. Didn't come near. Hit about 230K. Nothing to scoff at, but not what I wanted.

Honestly I lost a lot of motivation half way through the year after going on holiday, focused more on cold approach and gym. Not the worst trade off because CA has completely changed my life, which I'll talk about in a bit.

This year (2023) I have a goal set of 500K. I'm much more motivated to get that done though, having gone through this business course and thinking about new businesses to start by the end of the year.

I also realise that if I want to live the lifestyle I really want, I'm gonna have to ear a lot more.

I said business was my first priority last year but it didn't turn out that way. This year has to change that. I have to be fucking nailing this shit, not just hoping for the best.

Fitness
My body changed a lot this year.

Put on a decent 5kg of muscle and right now, I feel and look pretty sick. The pictures below are after a shoulder/chest pump and perfect down lighting, probs the best I could possibly look.

https://imgur.com/a/AbSDnYa
https://imgur.com/a/buXX6Rz
https://imgur.com/a/jqTiaqo
https://imgur.com/a/dZ9kCK2

Training's going really well after getting a coach. My pumps are way better, I'm controlling and using the weight way better and I've already put on a bit of size since starting with him.

I get lost of compliments on my physique. Went to a day festival recently and attracted a fair bit of attention.

It's helped with women a lot, no lie. Just helps with overall confidence knowing that you look the part. Girls like squeezing the muscles too lol. Alright enough vanity.

Still, didn't hit my goal of 90kg 10% bf. I'm 87 at the moment and estimate probably 12-13% bf.

Next year the goal is 92kg, 10% bf or even under, as my other goal is to compete in a men's physique contest.

And before you ask, or if you're wondering, no I'm not taking PEDs. 100% natty.


Cold Approach

I started out the year having never done a cold approach and now I'm regularly getting numbers and dates from it... I've fucked the hottest girls of my life from CA as well, so I think I've finally caught on to something here.

I've come to realise it's almost all about vibe, as ill defined as that word is and what it means... it's hard to explain, but being super confident, going in direct, being a little bit cheeky, but just being normal, non-needy, well-spoken, actually trying to get to know the girl a little bit and make some kind of decent conversation.

Oh yeah also, be attractive, don't be unattractive.

Super happy I started doing it this year and eternally grateful to the forums and everyone on here. I would've been beating myself up had I still not done it by this point of my life.

Women

Wanted to make a separate section for this cause getting them from CA is one thing, but keeping them is another.

Hit most of my goals for this one this year - Had my first threesome, approached well over 150, probably close to 300. Did not fuck a 9, but I think I can in the next few months. I'm determined now that I've got some better quality girls.

My overall confidence and frame are way better than last year, so I feel more comfortable in going for hotter girls.

I still have my challenges in terms of frame and being masculine in general.

But the more I do shit I know I should be doing, and avoiding shit I know I shouldn't do, the better I become at controlling my frame and being masculine.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gonna do another post with my goals for 2023 soon.

Thanks to ImChuckBass Mimbe393939 Rice twonightstander colgate caico11 and of course KillYourInnerLoser for being real Gs this year and helping me on my journey.
 
Drama said:
And before you ask, or if you're wondering, no I'm not taking PEDs. 100% natty.
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I'm always curious about the background of guys with insanely good genetics. Were you always muscular? When did you start training? Do you have a photo of what you look like completely untrained?
 
Fucking insane year man. Honestly, probably one of the biggest inspirations on here. Seem to be firing on all fronts.

How tall are you? Wanting to know to calibrate BW/BF%
 
pancakemouse said:
Drama said:
And before you ask, or if you're wondering, no I'm not taking PEDs. 100% natty.
Click to expand...

I'm always curious about the background of guys with insanely good genetics. Were you always muscular? When did you start training? Do you have a photo of what you look like completely untrained?
Click to expand...

Appreciate the compliment man, but I don't really think I have great genetics. I just train hard, 4-5 times a week, lift properly, progressive overload, take rests when my body needs it, eat properly, sleep decently well and overall place a lot of focus and emphasis on my health and body. All of these things are topics in their own right and have a lot of depth to them. If you nail them all (and there are probably some I'm missing), you will have a good physique. It just requires dedication to a desired outcome, consistency and the will/want to actually do it.

Genetically speaking, I probably have an advantage in that I'm a little bit shorter, my arm bones and torso are not that big, so when I put on muscle on my bicep for example, it pops out easily. Some guys struggle with this cause they have longer arms, legs, etc.

I started training when I was about 18, trained relatively hard for about 2 years, but no real clue what I was doing, never saw a personal trainer or put too much thought or dedication into it. In this time, however, I did build a decent frame.

Keep in mind I did gymnastics and martial arts as a kid, and played soccer all throughout highschool. I was never fat, always athletic and had a decent body composition cause of early childhood development.

Here are some photos from my late teen years when I got into the gym (2010-2013 roughly)

Before I started training
https://imgur.com/a/04n45oL

After about 6-12 months
https://imgur.com/a/z5bZwvg

After 1.5 years
https://imgur.com/a/aZ6uVr5

After 2.5 years
https://imgur.com/a/IQLzKDH

After this I stopped training basically for 5 years. Ages 21-26 I wasn't really training at all. Got back into it heavily at 26, trained for about 1.5 years on and off (ie. trained for 6 months, took 6 months off, trained for 6 months). After that 1.5 years, I met my ex and stopped training for a few months but looked like this:

https://imgur.com/a/NBRNaYp

Then we broke up and after another 6 months this epic shot was taken hahahah:

https://imgur.com/a/F6xZ4l6

^That was in 2019, trained relatively hard that year.

Then 2020, lockdowns happened and all gyms were shut for a year, but I still trained with a kettle bell. Looked like this NYD 2021:

https://imgur.com/a/K4OZVKY

The rest of my progress shots you can really see at the start of my thread, ie. over the last 3.5-4 years.

HankMoodyJr said:
Fucking insane year man. Honestly, probably one of the biggest inspirations on here. Seem to be firing on all fronts.

How tall are you? Wanting to know to calibrate BW/BF%
Click to expand...

Thanks bro! Appreciate it, it was a crazy year. I get inspired by all you guys as well though, so we're all winning :)

I'm 175cm or 5"9'

about 87kg or 191 lb

I would say I'm approx 13-15% bf in those pictures.
 
Drama said:
pancakemouse said:
I'm always curious about the background of guys with insanely good genetics. Were you always muscular? When did you start training? Do you have a photo of what you look like completely untrained?
Click to expand...

Appreciate the compliment man, but I don't really think I have great genetics. I just train hard, 4-5 times a week, lift properly, progressive overload, take rests when my body needs it, eat properly, sleep decently well and overall place a lot of focus and emphasis on my health and body. All of these things are topics in their own right and have a lot of depth to them. If you nail them all (and there are probably some I'm missing), you will have a good physique. It just requires dedication to a desired outcome, consistency and the will/want to actually do it.
Click to expand...

I don't want to take away from your hard work at all, but trust me, your genetic potential is far above average, I'd wager top 10% at least, maybe top 5%. Most people who have very good genetics in some domain are not aware that they do, and aren't aware of the full scope of human genetic variability, e.g. what it looks like for guys "to the left of the curve".

For example, I have poor genetics. I have been lifting for 15 years with no breaks. I've tried every program under the sun. I'm frequently the hardest working person in any gym I'm in. In all that time, I've gained less than 10 lbs of muscle.

Most guys who train for 4-5 years will hit their potential at "pretty damn good". I've trained with dozens of guys and seen them progress, and you are far beyond that.

What's interesting, though, is a lot of guys that blow up, you can tell by their natural muscularity when they begin. But for you, you can't tell AT ALL. That's fascinating.
 
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